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[My Man Mahmoud]

so what's wrong with death 1990 - 1998??

I don't know, maybe because they reverted to all the hippie crap that metal emerged as a reaction against?

_________________________________________________________________

Metal's history as an artform is one of ever increasing hostility to modern society and popular morality. Broadly speaking, that history breaks down into three major forms of social critique, each roughly associated with certain subgenres:

1. Heavy and Thrash Metal - There's nothing wrong with popular morality per se - but hypocrisy and the failure to actually apply those values in our societies are leading us to ruin.

2. Death Metal - Hypocrisy is disgusting, but the fundamental values of society are also twisted. This civilization is bound inevitably for ruin.

3. Black Metal - This society is dying, but doesn't know it yet. Its values are poisoning the world and its people. Here are new (old) values that will help people of strength move forward.

(Interestingly enough, this parallels the basic historical arc of Romanticism from Goethe and Schiller to Mary Shelley and Poe to Wagner and Nietzsche.)

Death emerged promoting a second phase critque (though it was by no means the first or most important voice in the chorus, as Chuck's fanboys often claim). Like many death metal band, Death temporally straddled the break between the second and third phases. Some (Incantation, Morbid Angel and Immolation) honed their own previous practice, making it more effective. Others (Therion, At the Gates and Amorphis) at least for a time began incorporating the lessons of black metal into their own work. Others began to drift away, their contributions made (Atheist and Demilich).

Chuck, I think, was too much of a prima donna to play second fiddle to anyone, so his response was rather different. He met the challenge of black metal with a reactionary reversion to a pre-metal posture in both concept and execution - hippie rock lyrics and hippie rock jam band pretensions layered over hopelessly predictable rock 'n roll structural idioms, all played with a superficial gloss of 'death metal.' Not surprisingly, the end result is music that is quaintly contrived, intellectually insulting and aesthetically incoherent.

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

wow fascinating stuff there

sorry dude, I don't take DM anywhere NEAR seriously enough to care about anything you just wrote

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

wow fascinating stuff there

sorry dude, I don't take DM anywhere NEAR seriously enough to care about anything you just wrote

Which probably goes a long way toward explaining your love for fag music like later Death...

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

fag music...

metal is entertainment to me... perhaps it has much philosophical, intellectual, and artistic value for you (and it is a beautiful art form)

for me it something to listen to while playing Grand theft auto, or lifting weights in the gym

though you seem to be a very intelligent person, and what you wrote is fascinating... you're just talking to the wrong person

 

[Perpetual Catatonia]

chuck's a kickass vocalist as well

I'll admit he's good on guitar but his vocals makes me want to punch babies.

 

[TylerTheNuke]

I don't know, maybe because they reverted to all the hippie crap that metal emerged as a reaction against?

_________________________________________________________________

Metal's history as an artform is one of ever increasing hostility to modern society and popular morality. Broadly speaking, that history breaks down into three major forms of social critique, each roughly associated with certain subgenres:

1. Heavy and Thrash Metal - There's nothing wrong with popular morality per se - but hypocrisy and the failure to actually apply those values in our societies are leading us to ruin.

2. Death Metal - Hypocrisy is disgusting, but the fundamental values of society are also twisted. This civilization is bound inevitably for ruin.

3. Black Metal - This society is dying, but doesn't know it yet. Its values are poisoning the world and its people. Here are new (old) values that will help people of strength move forward.

(Interestingly enough, this parallels the basic historical arc of Romanticism from Goethe and Schiller to Mary Shelley and Poe to Wagner and Nietzsche.)

Death emerged promoting a second phase critque (though it was by no means the first or most important voice in the chorus, as Chuck's fanboys often claim). Like many death metal band, Death temporally straddled the break between the second and third phases. Some (Incantation, Morbid Angel and Immolation) honed their own previous practice, making it more effective. Others (Therion, At the Gates and Amorphis) at least for a time began incorporating the lessons of black metal into their own work. Others began to drift away, their contributions made (Atheist and Demilich).

Chuck, I think, was too much of a prima donna to play second fiddle to anyone, so his response was rather different. He met the challenge of black metal with a reactionary reversion to a pre-metal posture in both concept and execution - hippie rock lyrics and hippie rock jam band pretensions layered over hopelessly predictable rock 'n roll structural id ioms, all played with a superficial gloss of 'death metal.' Not surprisingly, the end result is music that is quaintly contrived, intellectually insulting and aesthetically incoherent.

Obviously bigdave cares more about the music then the philosophy, so this post was wasted on him. Let me add my 2c here though. A genre of metal isn't confined by a philosophy. Quality isn't confined by philosophy either. There is plenty of artistic merit in music that doesn't follow this philosophy. You accuse him of reverting, but I disagree. Does "to forgive is to suffer" seem like a hippy sentiment? Lots of the post-human lyrics are less focused on philosophy and more on effect, so they don't seem as deep, but they are just as good. Death still finds the fundamental valuse of society twisted, but their later albums have more hope and faith in our ability to persevere and move forward. And lo behold, we have. Call me a fool for saying so, but statistics show that each generation is getting smarter according to IQ, we are getting taller, we are developing greater technologies, ect. I do not find chuck's hope to be misplaced of foolish or dumb or insulting to my intellegence. As for the music itself, it has clearly progressed. Jam band pretensions layered hopelessly over predictable rock'nroll structures? Wow, this is retarded. Jam band? How is death anything like a jam band? As for the predictible structures, that is simply a non-issue. Who seriously cares about the structure of songs like these? SUre, Hvis Lyset Tar Oss, for example, employs unconventional structures to great success, but is there anything that says something with regular structures is bad? Of course not. You don't judge music by what it lacks, but rather, by what it has. (btw, your type are so predictable. the last name you mention in regards to romanticism, hmmm, nietzsche, go figure.)

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

really interesting stuff by both tyler and my man

I see where my man is going and tyler makes some good points is well... personally I don't know enough about philosophy/death/Chuck to really respond to this in any manner that is meaningful

but judging the music based on only what I hear (and I am a 17 year old noob so I do recognize that my opinion isn't worth a whole lot), it sounds wonderful to me

 

[skeptik]

Why the fuck are you going to argue with Falco? It's not like anything new will be unearthed, as he's had this argument with himself and others a dozen times already. Let it be.

 

[Horst Nordfink]

Yeah, Falco. Right

 

[TylerTheNuke]

Falco? Should I feel retarded for not getting this?

 

[Hell Awaits Us All]

I presume that's his real name (maybe he got banned on it)

 

[MasterOLightning]

Falco? Should I feel retarded for not getting this?

Yes.

 

[ohiogrinder]

I'm probably the only one here who prefers early Death to the later stuff

 

[Mr_Haze]

Uhh, no

 

[MasterOLightning]

I don't know how people can think that ITP and TSOP are above mediocre.

 

[Nico]

Nope.

 

[TylerTheNuke]

Yes.

All I can think of is starfox

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

Obviously bigdave cares more about the music then the philosophy, so this post was wasted on him. Let me add my 2c here though. A genre of metal isn't confined by a philosophy.

Any musical form is in part defined by and created from an underlying philosophy. Change the philosophical emphasis and you end up changing the music. Why? Because music is symbolic expression - a way of representing ideas, beliefs, emotions etc. (in other words, 'philosophy') in sound.

[quoteYou accuse him of reverting, but I disagree. Does "to forgive is to suffer" seem like a hippy sentiment?[/quote]

Suffering and martyrdom are the highest form of 'heroism' in the liberal/hippie ethos...

Lots of the post-human lyrics are less focused on philosophy and more on effect, so they don't seem as deep, but they are just as good. Death still finds the fundamental valuse of society twisted, but their later albums have more hope and faith in our ability to persevere and move forward.

Except that they embrace the values of the dominant society and defend those values against any who attack them ("The Philosopher"/Mis), undermine them through hypocrisy ("Crystal Mountain") or propose other values ("Spirit Crusher"/"Story to Tell")...

Call me a fool for saying so, but statistics show that each generation is getting smarter according to IQ,

Evidence? The sources I've encountered indicate that median IQ in the Western world has remained virtually unchanged over the last century.

we are getting taller

Incrementally... On the other hand, we're growing fatter at an exponential rate.

we are developing greater technologies

And rapidly diminishing the envrionment in the process.

I do not find chuck's hope to be misplaced of foolish or dumb or insulting to my intellegence.

Congratulations! You're a fucking moron!

As for the music itself, it has clearly progressed. Jam band pretensions layered hopelessly over predictable rock'nroll structures? Wow, this is retarded. Jam band? How is death anything like a jam band?

It couldn't be the profusion of pointless wanking solos where actual music should go, could it?

As for the predictible structures, that is simply a non-issue. Who seriously cares about the structure of songs like these? SUre, Hvis Lyset Tar Oss, for example, employs unconventional structures to great success, but is there anything that says something with regular structures is bad?

In music, structure is the framework of meaning. When you don't have much to say, you just string it together in verse/chorus format, slap on a few solos and shit it out. There's not necessarily anything wrong with it - but it's not a good sign, and it's never going to have the kind of depth that more structurally complex music has.

(btw, your type are so predictable. the last name you mention in regards to romanticism, hmmm, nietzsche, go figure.)

It's pretty difficult to talk about late Romanticism without talking about the influence of Nietzshe, genius.

 

[Cythraul]

music is symbolic expression - a way of representing ideas, beliefs, emotions etc. (in other words, 'philosophy') in sound.

Music represents things? How?

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

Music represents things? How?

Words represent things? How?