Arrrgggghhh, "green" people (a brief rant)

[Metaltastic]

There are a lot of things that piss me off, but overly preachy environmentalists are pretty close to the top. My Mom's friend is over, and apparently has been "reading lots of green stuff on the internet", and this whole night has been "you should unplug your toaster, microwave, coffee maker, or anything else that generates heat when not in use because they're constantly drawing a lot of power", "you should turn off all the lights when leaving a room", "you shouldn't rinse dishes before putting them in the dishwasher", etc. The latter two sentiments I can see the logic behind (not too sure about the first), but I happen to like walking into a room with some light already on, and as for the rinsing, it's a matter of a dishwasher not having a great deal of abrasive power, so we don't want to take stuff out to discover food encrusted on it. When trying to explain this, the response was "well ok, just keep using more than your share" (and so I chimed in with a very sarcastic "Yes, and every time you do, you're putting a gun to the head of a little African boy and pulling the trigger!" )

I mean, I'm all for being green, and I make a fair amount of effort to do so - but there's also a point where a line has to be drawn between what is and isn't worth sacrificing for the sake of mother Earth (for example, I eat the type of peanut butter that only comes in glass jars, and there is no fucking way I'm going to wash that shit out to recycle 'em, they go straight in the trash). Damn preachy vagina faces...

I read a really good article in my Environmental Issues class this past semester, called The Tragedy of the Commons (yes I actually read the article, not just the wiki )- for anyone remotely interested in environmental stuff, it's an absolutely fantastic read, but the active ingredient is there's no way you can ever expect people to change simply by guilting them; they have to be given some sort of incentive (and laws fall under that category) or else they won't listen! (and this is the argument I've used multiple times in myriad anti-piracy threads; trying to just endlessly parade the guilt machine is not gonna do dick for most people, the only solution IMO is to just enact harsher laws against piracy if that's what you believe in!)

 

[Metaltastic]

Just re-skimmed the article, and wanted to share some quotes that really hammer the point home well IMO:

"When we use the word responsibility in the absence of substantial sanctions are we not trying to browbeat a free man in a commons into acting against his own interest? Responsibility is a verbal counterfeit for a substantial quid pro quo. It is an attempt to get something for nothing."

"The social arrangements that produce responsibility are arrangements that create coercion, of some sort. Consider bank-robbing. The man who takes money from a bank acts as if the bank were a commons. How do we prevent such action? Certainly not by trying to control his behavior solely by a verbal appeal to his sense of responsibility...That we thereby infringe on the freedom of would-be robbers we neither deny nor regret."

And this one especially:

The morality of bank-robbing is particularly easy to understand because we accept complete prohibition of this activity. We are willing to say "Thou shalt not rob banks," without providing for exceptions. But temperance also can be created by coercion. Taxing is a good coercive device. To keep downtown shoppers temperate in their use of parking space we introduce parking meters for short periods, and traffic fines for longer ones. We need not actually forbid a citizen to park as long as he wants to; we need merely make it increasingly expensive for him to do so. Not prohibition, but carefully biased options are what we offer him. A Madison Avenue man might call this persuasion; I prefer the greater candor of the word coercion.

To many, the word coercion implies arbitrary decisions of distant and irresponsible bureaucrats; but this is not a necessary part of its meaning. The only kind of coercion I recommend is mutual coercion, mutually agreed upon by the majority of the people affected...To say that we mutually agree to coercion is not to say that we are required to enjoy it, or even to pretend we enjoy it. Who enjoys taxes? We all grumble about them. But we accept compulsory taxes because we recognize that voluntary taxes would favor the conscienceless.

And finally:

It is one of the peculiarities of the warfare between reform and the status quo that it is thoughtlessly governed by a double standard. Whenever a reform measure is proposed it is often defeated when its opponents triumphantly discover a flaw in it. As Kingsley Davis has pointed out (21), worshippers of the status quo sometimes imply that no reform is possible without unanimous agreement, an implication contrary to historical fact. As nearly as I can make out, automatic rejection of proposed reforms is based on one of two unconscious assumptions: (i) that the status quo is perfect; or (ii) that the choice we face is between reform and no action; if the proposed reform is imperfect, we presumably should take no action at all, while we wait for a perfect proposal.

But we can never do nothing. That which we have done for thousands of years is also action. It also produces evils. Once we are aware that the status quo is action, we can then compare its discoverable advantages and disadvantages with the predicted advantages and disadvantages of the proposed reform, discounting as best we can for our lack of experience. On the basis of such a comparison, we can make a rational decision which will not involve the unworkable assumption that only perfect systems are tolerable.

...So yeah, I guess this thread has just turned into me summarizing this really good article for the sake of discussion, but hey, I'll take it!

Ooh, and here's another good one from the conclusion:

No technical solution can rescue us from the misery of overpopulation. Freedom to breed will bring ruin to all. At the moment, to avoid hard decisions many of us are tempted to propagandize for conscience and responsible parenthood. The temptation must be resisted, because an appeal to independently acting consciences selects for the disappearance of all conscience in the long run, and an increase in anxiety in the short.

The only way we can preserve and nurture other and more precious freedoms is by relinquishing the freedom to breed, and that very soon. "Freedom is the recognition of necessity"--and it is the role of education to reveal to all the necessity of abandoning the freedom to breed.

 

[abyssofdreams]

There's nothing wrong with "enthusiastic" environmentalism, I'm with you on the part that overly preachy and self-righteous pricks can drive one insane.
A healthy dose of responsibility and altruism and we would live in a far better place. Fortunately, there are quite a lot of figures optimistic about it.

Slightly off-topic, I encourage you and everyone else to watch this highly entertaining and illuminating panel discussion I just happen to have discovered as of recent:















Have fun watching it

 

[Metaltastic]

Hmm, dunno how many of those I'll be able to make it through tbh dude, but I'll give it a try! I have to admit, I chuckled a bit when you said "a healthy dose of responsibility" though; maybe give my second post a read? AND WELCOME BACK btw, about time!

 

[abyssofdreams]

I've read it but I don't agree with all of it. Granted, I should've been less abstract with my words but I'm fucking tired right now 2:30am

And thanks, glad to have me back as well

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

The entire green moment is abrasive to me in pretty much every way.

 

[GarethSE]

I like green.
harhar

 

[Erkan]

You know what really pisses me off? "Green" hardware products, especially computer ones. It's like "Hey, buy our new Green hard drive! It consumes 1 whole freakin' Watt less than average so you can have a good conscience about the environment!". Bullshit. This green crap has gone WAY out of hand. I'm not against it, I'm just sick of all the bullshit. We won't save the rainforests or anything for that matter by using green hard drives in our computers, it's totally insignificant.

 

[Notuern]

Correct me if im wrong, but wouldnt pre-rinsing the dishes be more "green" then having to dish them 2-3 times in the dishwasher before getting them clean?

 

[Metaltastic]

Well she was implying that pre-rinsing isn't necessary, but I dunno, I'm skeptical - regardless, though, I'd be a lot more inclined to give it a try (cuz what's the worst that could happen? There's some crust on there, my suspicions were confirmed, so I chisel it off and back in it goes, won't do that no more!) if she and others weren't so goddamn pushy about it! But I will give it a try at some point

 

[Erkan]

Correct me if im wrong, but wouldnt pre-rinsing the dishes be more "green" then having to dish them 2-3 times in the dishwasher before getting them clean?

That's what I thought too :|

 

[plague_rider]

Don't get me wrong, alot of this eco-warrior shit is well annoying but i gotta say i've found myself throwing cardboard, babyfood jars and plastic bottles in the the recycling box which is next to the bin (not much more effort throwing it a foot to the left...)

and when it comes to switching shit off at the mains or turning lights off... gotta say i do it more for the fact that i'm paying for the electric and earn naff all money...

and theres no way i'm giving up steak!!

beyond that, i'm waiting for them to invent a proper clean power source...

 

[SocialNumb]

Seems like a money making scam to me.



Not rinsing the dishes before putting them into the dishwasher is a disaster. I got a pretty dam good dishwasher too.

@abyssofdreams thanks for bringing those videos to my attention. Gotta watch them. I see Dawkins is in there.

 

[J.DavisNJ]

Shit son, I always pre-rinse. Damn hippies.

-Joe

 

[plague_rider]

i also can't afford a dishwasher so i can't vouch for rinsing before washing...

 

[deanbailey]

My opinion (and this is probably where my signature makes sense) is that the world has enough humans as it is. trust me...I know, it sounds ridiculous.
But I believe that it's the abundance of humans on the planet that create the insane demand for natural resources. Kind of like a virus taking over, where the more there are the harder it is to control.

If you look at the big picture, Humans are like bacteria that's destroying the earth slowly but surely. Sure, you get good bacteria but the amount of bad far surpasses the good.
There have been movies like "The Day the earth Stood still", "Andromeda Strain" (perhaps not this movie so much) and "The Happening" that have been trying to explain this to people in a fictional sense without trying to sound like "green-heads".

Humans are the smartest creatures on the planet but also the dumbest.
I don't plan on having kids for a good reason, because I feel that wanting to bring a child into a world like this is selfish. It's like moving into a house that's inevitably gonna collapse in on itself.

EDIT: sorry I can see how this would sound beyond crazy to a lot of you.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

I'll recycle because it's easy.

I'll turn off my lights and replace my bulbs with florescent ones (except my studio) because it costs me less money on the utility bill.

However:

I WILL NOT buy a green car. They are small, they fucking suck, and they has no balls (I have only been in a prius, it was a huge piece of shit I couldn't believe how fucking wimpy and pathetic it was).

I WILL NOT go out of my way to make my car more friendly to the environment because I don't have the fucking money to do so or the incentive other than "you should".

I WILL NOT go out of my way to make my apartment more energy efficient because it's NOT my property and if the landlord doesn't give a fuck neither do I.

I WILL NOT use my tube amps less because they are supposedly "not green". Fuck that.

I WILL NOT turn on/off the stupid tap every 5 seconds while shaving, rinsing dishes, or tooth brushing because I could potentially save a gallon or 2 every time. Sorry but yep I am that lazy.

I WILL NOT buy green products just because they are green. SERIOUSLY the biggest FUCK YOU to this.

I WILL NOT use green cleaning products. I have tried them and they fucking BLOW.

I WILL NOT go out of my way to buy products that are CFC free. It's about number 100 on my list of important to me features of a spray product.

I WILL NOT freeze my ass off in the winter time to save electricity or natural gas.

I WILL NOT sweat my ass off in the summer to save energy.


That about sums up my feelings on this whole nonsense.

 

[abyssofdreams]

My opinion (and this is probably where my signature makes sense) is that the world has enough humans as it is. trust me...I know, it sounds ridiculous.
But I believe that it's the abundance of humans on the planet that create the insane demand for natural resources. Kind of like a virus taking over, where the more there are the harder it is to control.

If you look at the big picture, Humans are like bacteria that's destroying the earth slowly but surely. Sure, you get good bacteria but the amount of bad far surpasses the good.
There have been movies like "The Day the earth Stood still", "Andromeda Strain" (perhaps not this movie so much) and "The Happening" that have been trying to explain this to people in a fictional sense without trying to sound like "green-heads".

Humans are the smartest creatures on the planet but also the dumbest.
I don't plan on having kids for a good reason, because I feel that wanting to bring a child into a world like this is selfish. It's like moving into a house that's inevitably gonna collapse in on itself.

EDIT: sorry I can see how this would sound beyond crazy to a lot of you.

Agent Smith?

No actually, you're right about the overpopulation part and it is a quite popular thought. With way less humans, most problems disappear.
Doesn't sound crazy at all.

Your thinking about not bringing a kid into this world is kind of understandable, however, if all educated people think like this you get an idea why things might get worse

 

[Metaltastic]

Loren, I agree with all your points above - except for the bit about turning off the water when shaving, brushing teeth, etc.; I've been doing that for years, and it's really not that hard For the others, you make valid points, and like I said above, there's a limit to how much I'm willing to sacrifice, but I dunno, you really would save water by just reaching down and turning off the tap, and it becomes a very easy habit to stick with

 

[spioraid]