Angry rant about people devaluing studio time
- Thread starter [UEAK]Clowd
- Start date
joelplagues
Member
It might help you if you didn't think of "Producers" as all the same thing. If anything this thread should tell you not to.
For example, if and when I get into recording other people for money, in many ways I will be running a "studio" but I have zero interest in cleaning up after musicians, so I'll set it all up like all musicians are great and give them limited chances to get what they want. I know a lot of you have a serious interest in how to fix this or that, and that's fine but it's not for me, I don't want to be an audio janitor. I know that it will limit my commercial appeal, but I'm doing this because I like it and I'll do it if it makes me money or not.
I don't know how much I'll charge but it wont be much at all since it will be raw and fast in comparison to average production. It will be better than the aforementioned thread starting track though. I couldn't live with that shit.
But my point is, while I will/may be "producing" it will be very different from your brand of producing.
But at the same time, obviously i will make it known the limitations of the service and as such why my costs are so low, and what you get from more expensive production "packages" if you like. As I said, I'm not in it for the money, so I'm happy with happy people.
For example, if and when I get into recording other people for money, in many ways I will be running a "studio" but I have zero interest in cleaning up after musicians, so I'll set it all up like all musicians are great and give them limited chances to get what they want. I know a lot of you have a serious interest in how to fix this or that, and that's fine but it's not for me, I don't want to be an audio janitor. I know that it will limit my commercial appeal, but I'm doing this because I like it and I'll do it if it makes me money or not.
I don't know how much I'll charge but it wont be much at all since it will be raw and fast in comparison to average production. It will be better than the aforementioned thread starting track though. I couldn't live with that shit.
But my point is, while I will/may be "producing" it will be very different from your brand of producing.
But at the same time, obviously i will make it known the limitations of the service and as such why my costs are so low, and what you get from more expensive production "packages" if you like. As I said, I'm not in it for the money, so I'm happy with happy people.
Cool story 
Axonic Rot
Member
- Jan 25, 2010
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Why is there any reason to care?
I don't think auto body shops get mad at $2 cans of spray paint and rubber hammers.
I don't think auto body shops get mad at $2 cans of spray paint and rubber hammers.
Jarkko Mattheiszen
The FU guy.
You've never had a client tell you your prices are too high because he has a friend with a cracked Nuendo setup and will do it for twenty bucks?
Axonic Rot
Member
- Jan 25, 2010
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No, I have only worked with people who specifically came to me for the sounds that I get. I have worked with people who have their own recording setups but know they haven't spent the time I have doing recording and can't get the results I can.
If anyone ever did say anything like that to me I would just tell them to go and save that money
. I wouldn't even put up a case for myself. If they really can't hear the difference, they are not going to be musicians I could tolerate working with anyway.
joelplagues
Member
just adding that I, like a lot of you are completely over bands not getting back to you after quoting as well. why does every mother fucker think its cheap to make a record and when you give them the real price of things they go into shock? why do you want to record a $2000 amplifier for $200 bucks?
I just don't see how musicians themselves think it should be so stupid cheap to make a record,even though the band I'm working with now admit maybe they should spend more time on a cd next time, I know next time they will still complain about money and cut every corner to lower the cost. musicians are as much to blame as these so called "engineers"
I just don't see how musicians themselves think it should be so stupid cheap to make a record,even though the band I'm working with now admit maybe they should spend more time on a cd next time, I know next time they will still complain about money and cut every corner to lower the cost. musicians are as much to blame as these so called "engineers"
guitarguru777
Member
Depends on the band really
I had a Death Core band here about 2 months ago that did 2 songs, we spent 1 day tracking drums, 2 days tracking guitars, 1 day tracking bass, and 2 days on vocals. All in all about 50 hours or so. They paid 500
I had a band I just completed that did 7 songs and paid $1000 that project took almost 100 hours.
My rates considering that are like $10 an hour. They are going up next month though, those were some "specials" that I ran for 2 months.
Jarkko Mattheiszen
The FU guy.
Does those include mixing? Even if they don't, that rate is really really low. According to the intarnetz, the minimum salary at McDonald's in the US is around $7-8. Now, considering you are self-employed, you're left with a lot less since (if things are at all similar over there) you're paying a lot more in tax and insurances, and in addition, you have made significant investments in your gear.
If the mixing (and perhaps mastering?) is included in the prices you mentioned, you're devaluing yourself really bad.
guitarguru777
Member
Am i de-valuing my skills yes I think I am but I look at it this way as well....
They could go to the guy right around the corner from me with the really nice tracking room an old jade analog console, some nice L2-A and 1176 clones for $50 an hour.
1. I dont have a "room"
2. I dont have the best mics
3. My mastering skills are sorely lacking
As I improve my rates increase. My rates are going up a tad next month, and by december I should be in my new house and get to do my studio build. Once that is complete I will get more normal rates.
I mean how would you feel paying $50 an hour for a studio and they dont even have a tracking room for drums?
They could go to the guy right around the corner from me with the really nice tracking room an old jade analog console, some nice L2-A and 1176 clones for $50 an hour.
1. I dont have a "room"
2. I dont have the best mics
3. My mastering skills are sorely lacking
As I improve my rates increase. My rates are going up a tad next month, and by december I should be in my new house and get to do my studio build. Once that is complete I will get more normal rates.
I mean how would you feel paying $50 an hour for a studio and they dont even have a tracking room for drums?
[UEAK]Clowd;9836143 said:
well, i also think that people who download software from piratebay,
buy some behringer gear and then calling themselves PRODUCER
should be punched in the face instantly and forever but,
i think that the source of this problem are stupid ass bands who are
1. not willing to pay for a good recording and
2. do not know a shit about how much time it takes to record
and mix an album.
i have pretty good gear and enough experience,
i am far from being a pro but i think that i can make
some good recordings and mixes.
so, a few days ago i mixed a
"self recorded at a friends space" 4 track EP for 120€.
i had a fucking hard time to convince the band that
this is a minimum and that it is actually just a stimulus for me
apart from that i would'n even bother to offer any mixing work.
after downloading about 10GB of false tracks (CRC check)
i finally got absolutely bad tracks, besides from being anything
close to tight the drum tracks were an absolute bleed-mess.
the hum on the track was almost louther than the bass itself.
we also had to re-record all the vocals which was extra work for me.
after i had mixed everything they wanted about a thousand different versions.
among other things they wanted m0ar bass and i tried to explain that i have
pretty decent speakers and that it could be that they just can't hear the bass
on their laptop speakers. all i got back was "dude we want more bass"
i know two of the guys so i took it pretty easy,
otherwise i'd go postal.
i think if there is anyone to blame, it's the bands who know a shit about
recording mixing and all the time-consuming things all around that.
they can buy new cellphones, hip clothes and make party every day
but they do not have money for new strings, proper gear in general and studio time.
cheers
S.
Jarkko Mattheiszen
The FU guy.
We're not talking about $50 an hour, we're talking about what seems to be way less than $10 an hour. No matter how you justify it, you can't deny it's plain and simply a lousy salary, and even if you don't have the nice vintage console and shit, you're undercutting the prices. We've talked about this before, and IIRC in that particular case you were angry because you had been royally fucked over for charging way too little.
Look at it the other way: There's a guy around the block who has a good room and some really nice gear, and he charges $50 and hour to keep himself in the business. He knows there's a dude nearby, who hasn't got such a nice setup, but he's charging pennies so bands often use his services.
I've said this before, but I'm talking from personal experience as I've fucked up by charging way too little in the beginning and nothing good ever came out of it. I guess my main point is (and this isn't aimed at you Guru, but pretty much everyone it concerns):
1) If you aren't confident about your skills and equipment, practice and improve. Do stuff for your friends, make it clear you're not a pro and you're doing it just for learning purposes. Don't advertise your services and lowball everyone else in the industry just because you think you're shit.
2) When you feel you're good enough, start working for other people, advertise your services and LEARN TO VALUE YOUR EXPERTICE, TIME AND EFFORT.
I'm not saying this out of bitterness or something equally stupid, I'm saying this because I've done the same mistakes and I know they aren't worth it.
guitarguru777
Member
No I totally see where you are coming from, but even know with these low prices I am struggling to get bands in the door. If i was in a city like New York or LA my rates would be much higher. Here its really a lack of bands in general and I have to fight for the few that I get. I don't think my quality is horrible, and I know I turn out a better product they the guy around the corner. But the issue is that these kids see this guy around the corner with this big huge console, xbox, and "the room of doom" and go running to him just cause the "looks" like a big time studio when hes just some rich guy who's mommy and daddy bought him a studio.
I need to be able to compete in some way, and price is the only way I can at the moment.
I need to be able to compete in some way, and price is the only way I can at the moment.
There's actually a small possibility that the guy's higher rates factor into him getting more bands. It's human nature to attach more value to something more expensive - in a showdown between a $50 product and a $10 product, the human brain expects a drastic quality difference between the two. You wouldn't buy a cheap ass Behringer interface as the centrepiece of your studio, would you?
By increasing your prices to $25 or $30 an hour you might change the game. You'd no longer be the cheap guy on the block; you'd be the guy who charges a significant but not ridiculous amount less because you have less invested into gear - the core of your price is now about your personal skill and time, not about the gear.
Then again you have to ask yourself truthfully, are your records really as good as the other dude's? If they are, there's something wrong with your marketing and presence in the neighbourhood. Nobody would pay 5x more for a shittier album, regardless of whether he has an Xbox or not. If this is the case, then simply not enough bands know you exist, and THAT is the problem you need to remedy.
Remember that making money off producing is the same as making money off anything else; there's much more to it than just being good at your craft. There are incredibly talented people all over the world that fail to survive in a business they are technically very good at, because they are doing something else wrong. How well known is your studio? How many local bands are you on talking terms with? What does your website look like? Are you a chill guy to work with? Are you an interesting person? Do people that meet you want to meet you again? Ultimately, producing a band is an extremely personal affair. Imagine what kind of person you'd love to spend 10 hours a day for 3 weeks straight with, then strive to be that person in your professional role.
I'm personally not a great people person, but I am fairly intelligent, very technically minded and I learn pretty quickly. I'll (hopefully!) bring the technical skills and ideas to the table. The guy I'm going into business with, however, is one of the most charming and appealing guys at first encounter that you could ever meet. The studio isn't even open yet, but when I'm out in town with him or whatever, every single damn person we meet gets a business card and his little spiel about production and what he's gonna do and how awesome it's gonna be etc. etc. Every cute girl gets one (the girls are especially good, if you can make that romantic/sexual connection with a girl you'll stay in her head more than just another bloke meeting another bloke), every boring guy we end up talking to, every bartender, everybody. Not that that's the secret to success or something, we don't know, we haven't opened up yet, but from what I've read and understood about business, making sure EVERYBODY knows your name is never a bad thing.
Bottom line is: if you can't charge enough to live and you feel that your production skills are good enough that you SHOULD be able to - you are probably doing something else wrong. Ofc there's all this state of the industry shit, and you might be in a terrible area, or you might not even have enough gear to make a demo quality record, but from experience it seems like most of the people that complain about that stuff are missing a much more integral part of the equation somewhere else.
Take all that with a pinch of salt; I'm fucking tired and I just rambled on about stuff I've been thinking about recently hahah.
EDIT: I'll probably come back with my tail between my legs in a year with "WHaaaa the studio flopped, all these cheap bastards are ruining me, the state of the industry, illegal downloads, no money, aaaa," but at least I'll know I gave it a proper go >_<.
