Ayreon

[razoredge]

this is what I said "Gildenlow is weak compared to Tate or Stevens but at least he tries passion. Thing is you can tell its from his head not his soul." Weak compared to Tate - not weak period, tries passion meaning I noticed, from his head means hes thinking "I need to make this sound passionate" now half a minute later hes thinking "I need do a Zappa thing with middle east harmonys", now half a minute later hes thinking "I need to do some rap kinda thing", now half a minute later he thinks screw it "Im going to sing some disco and do some Reatha Franklin background vocals" meaning its all conjured up stuff in his head then he trys to translate it through his soul. His range? Is good but he doenst have the full tenor timbre Tate has forget the notes Geoff sang when he was in his thirties as Gildenlow is now. Gildenlow gets screachy where Tate is deeper, fuller and was like listening to Pavorati (sp) of metal. I checked out Gildenlow due to that video that was posted here somewhere due to the fact that I thought to myself "this might be the guy" so if I had that reaction I would have a hard time seeing how they are in different leagues. Unless you go back to that head thing where Gildenlow seems to have to try this and try that, yes that would make him a different league (that apparently no body wants to play in - joke/reality) But when hes balls to the wall he falls short on the Tate meter. Im not downing him, hes just not the guy. Expression - I find Tates singing from the core, he sings his political and social beliefs and I find Gildenlows to be acting on his takes of life around him, I even sensed some of that watching that video.

Kahn - yep Tate school of music for sure, but still down on the meter, not the range, power or quite the timbre... though Ill give timbre an open to opinion. He has been added to my list of top vocalists but Gildenlow is still a big question mark.

Tate live? - He was great last winter when I saw him. I did not expect him to be that good. The only thing he backed of on was the one note in Take Hold of the Flame and at 48 I dont blame him. He did hit the first part and I didnt expect him to even try it, frankly I couldnt believe he nailed the chorus and I mean he nailed it. Live his expression was equal if not more dramatic and he gave himself a pretty good physical workout while doing so. Yes his/their style changed and he backed off a bit on what his critics call "drama queen of metal" but live he still expressed the songs as they were recorded. His/their "unpluged" version of Lady Wore Black from the early 90's I really like and I dont think thats easy to sing, it has some pretty good intervals in it. His live version of Comfortable Numb with DT disappointed me because when I read that he performed on it I really expected something special but it was just OK. So there I found a flaw in a live cover song.

"Not that expressive" does not win one the reward of being called "the drama queen of metal" Today? He can still get it done and Im sure if comparisions through Aryeon could ever be made between the two it would result in more severe arguements but Im sure Geoff would sing from his heart and Gildenlow would conjure up something and apply it and both would give a great performance. Perhaps with Arjen writting the music I would enjoy it more as well.

 

[progmetaldan]

Arjen is a genius, 'nuff said.

 

[Pharaoh]

Arjen is a genius, 'nuff said.

I was waiting for someone to say that.

 

[Meedleyx10]

this is what I said "Gildenlow is weak compared to Tate or Stevens but at least he tries passion. Thing is you can tell its from his head not his soul." Weak compared to Tate - not weak period, tries passion meaning I noticed, from his head means hes thinking "I need to make this sound passionate" now half a minute later hes thinking "I need do a Zappa thing with middle east harmonys", now half a minute later hes thinking "I need to do some rap kinda thing", now half a minute later he thinks screw it "Im going to sing some disco and do some Reatha Franklin background vocals" meaning its all conjured up stuff in his head then he trys to translate it through his soul. His range? Is good but he doenst have the full tenor timbre Tate has forget the notes Geoff sang when he was in his thirties as Gildenlow is now. Gildenlow gets screachy where Tate is deeper, fuller and was like listening to Pavorati (sp) of metal. I checked out Gildenlow due to that video that was posted here somewhere due to the fact that I thought to myself "this might be the guy" so if I had that reaction I would have a hard time seeing how they are in different leagues. Unless you go back to that head thing where Gildenlow seems to have to try this and try that, yes that would make him a different league (that apparently no body wants to play in - joke/reality) But when hes balls to the wall he falls short on the Tate meter. Im not downing him, hes just not the guy. Expression - I find Tates singing from the core, he sings his political and social beliefs and I find Gildenlows to be acting on his takes of life around him, I even sensed some of that watching that video.

Kahn - yep Tate school of music for sure, but still down on the meter, not the range, power or quite the timbre... though Ill give timbre an open to opinion. He has been added to my list of top vocalists but Gildenlow is still a big question mark.

Tate live? - He was great last winter when I saw him. I did not expect him to be that good. The only thing he backed of on was the one note in Take Hold of the Flame and at 48 I dont blame him. He did hit the first part and I didnt expect him to even try it, frankly I couldnt believe he nailed the chorus and I mean he nailed it. Live his expression was equal if not more dramatic and he gave himself a pretty good physical workout while doing so. Yes his/their style changed and he backed off a bit on what his critics call "drama queen of metal" but live he still expressed the songs as they were recorded. His/their "unpluged" version of Lady Wore Black from the early 90's I really like and I dont think thats easy to sing, it has some pretty good intervals in it. His live version of Comfortable Numb with DT disappointed me because when I read that he performed on it I really expected something special but it was just OK. So there I found a flaw in a live cover song.

"Not that expressive" does not win one the reward of being called "the drama queen of metal" Today? He can still get it done and Im sure if comparisions through Aryeon could ever be made between the two it would result in more severe arguements but Im sure Geoff would sing from his heart and Gildenlow would conjure up something and apply it and both would give a great performance. Perhaps with Arjen writting the music I would enjoy it more as well.

You see, it pretty much sounds like you're judging Gildenlow from the standpoint of how much he does or doesn't sound like Tate. At that point it's not even a debate because he definitely doesn't. I don't think I could disagree more with the idea that his singing is all in his head. If you listen to their music, the diversity in it all very much necessitates the wide variances in his vocals so I really have a hard time seeing them as anything but natural. Really though, if you're not hearing passion in his voice I just don't feel like you've really listened. I do agree that there isn't anybody who would want to play in his league, but on the same token you'd be very hardpressed to find someone capable of playing in his league....much less having the musical context(s) to do so.

 

[Kenneth R.]

razoredge I don't know what you're listening to.

 

[razoredge]

I dont think you read what I said, or at least did'nt register it. I did not say he doesnt sing with passion. I did not say I was basing it on whether he sounded like Tate. I recall talking about timber, power (lungage) and level on my intence passion meter. Yes my meter is Tate, he is the bar Im anxiously waiting to be met. But someone doesnt have to have his voice to achieve this. I dont want that and it really cant happen anyhow, voice is pretty unique to the individual. They just need the balls and heart.

I think hes good, I dont think hes good enough to make my "greatest" list. But I already went through the reasons why. His composition/arrangement ideas are phenominal and if someone likes all of it alot then it appeals to their taste and thats cool. Hes too off the wall for me most of the time. If thats him playing the guitar solos, thats where he belongs, theirs some really unique playing going on at least from my varied but somewhat limited listening. Ill agree with SXJapan, some of his vocals are not that good in spots on my limited number of songs, Fandango is one of them, but I have a few I'd call other great passionate pieces. Oblivion Ocean is one of them, Enter Rain is another. But he's still a bit weak for my flavor.

Heres my passionate delivery meter:
Take "Oblivion Ocean", there he is an acoustic guitar and his voice, time to shine, which he does... in his way

Now listen to "I Will remember" from "Rage For Order" a comparable piece.

Gildenlow just doesnt have that kind of power, that level of intence dynamics and talk about bleeding passion. That is my bar. He good, maybe a 7 or 8 on my 10 scale depending on the song and a 7 or 8 is high, so dont misunderstand me, but hes still a bit weak, thin sounding. Maybe I'll adapt and he might just squeeze #10 on my top 10 ........ lol

**I made a big mistake doing math in my head last night with lack of sleep. Tate was in his 20's during the 80's, sorry **

 

[Meedleyx10]

I dont think you read what I said, or at least did'nt register it. I did not say he doesnt sing with passion. I did not say I was basing it on whether he sounded like Tate. I recall talking about timber, power (lungage) and level on my intence passion meter. Yes my meter is Tate, he is the bar Im anxiously waiting to be met. But someone doesnt have to have his voice to achieve this. I dont want that and it really cant happen anyhow, voice is pretty unique to the individual. They just need the balls and heart.

You implied a bunch of times that you don't think he sings with passion. To be more specific, you said: hes thinking "I need to make this sound passionate" now half a minute later hes thinking "I need do a Zappa thing with middle east harmonys", now half a minute later hes thinking "I need to do some rap kinda thing", now half a minute later he thinks screw it "Im going to sing some disco and do some Reatha Franklin background vocals" meaning its all conjured up stuff in his head then he trys to translate it through his soul." It's naive enough to assume that "zappa things", "rap things", and the "disco with with Areatha Franklin background vocals" can't or don't have passion to them (unless you are typing and meaning two different things when you differentiate those from what you consider passionate). As far as range goes, without actually going through each singer's back catalogue and finding exact pitches, I'm pretty sure Gildenlow his a wider range...probably in both directions. The timbre thing totally comes down to taste and neither of them would have the appropriate timbre to sing each other's material. On the other hand, they are each probably the best singer for their respective bands. They are both unique and instantly recognizable singers.

I think hes good, I dont think hes good enough to make my "greatest" list.

that's totally fine. I'm not trying to boost your opinion of Daniel or bump Tate off of the pedestal you have him on.

Heres my passionate delivery meter:
Take "Oblivion Ocean", there he is an acoustic guitar and his voice, time to shine, which he does... in his way

Now listen to "I Will remember" from "Rage For Order" a comparable piece.

Gildenlow just doesnt have that kind of power, that level of intence dynamics and talk about bleeding passion.

No, you're right...Daniel definitely has more

 

[The Stormbringer]

Steve Lee of Swiss "hard" rockers Gotthard was announced. Feel the excitement.

 

[The Stormbringer]

No, you're right...Daniel definitely has more

Gildenlöw's whiny, nasal, overly expressive, cheesy, contrived singing could never match the intensity Tate's screams bring in "I Don't Believe In Love" or "Eyes Of A Stranger".

 

[Kenneth R.]

these announcements don't really get me pumped. I'll wait for samples. The thing with Ayreon for me is that there are amazing passages and riffs, stuck between horridly contrived and cheesy interludes, even songs, which are skip-demanding. So to listen straight through alternates between joy and despise.

PS. damn you, contrived is my word.
I don't see how people are comparing DG to GT. DG has more range. GT has more experience. Both have several hit/classic albums. Personally I prefer DG, since without DeGarmo, GT can't write legendary music.

 

[ABQShredHead]

I've heard all of PoS' albums. I can't say I'm impressed with his singing. I'll go with Tate on this debate. In his hey day, he was bloody unbelievable.

And, yes, Ken's right - Queensryche is shit without DeGarmo. The music sucks, the singing has gone to hell (Tate gave everything he had back in the '80's-'90's), and I'm thoroughly unimpressed. But, the era from Empire back is fantastic!

 

[Meedleyx10]

Gildenlöw's whiny, nasal, overly expressive, cheesy, contrived singing could never match the intensity Tate's screams bring in "I Don't Believe In Love" or "Eyes Of A Stranger".

before someone else takes that statement seriously, I just threw that on the end of my post to poke some fun at/with the guy (though I actually do feel that way). Tate has (had) his moments and, like I said, I'm definitely a fan...but as far as I'm concerned he hasn't got shit on Gildenlow in terms of of intensity.

 

[razoredge]

yes, I dont do well expressing my thoughts in words and things I say can be taken two opposing ways. If I didnt feel Gildenlow was expressive I would not have made the statement "maybe this is the guy".... now would I ?

Power - I hear him doing alot of soft wispering type singing, very few places have I heard him get loud and powerful and at that, its still weak compared to most frontman. He's also quite buried in the mix, not upfront like most metal singers I can think of. He also does alot of stacking (layering), all kinds of vocal stuff going on. So in the power department I honestly need to question where your coming from, power is Tate, Dickenson, Kiske, Oliva, Stevens, Allen young Robert Plant, Hager, and nearly every other hardrock or metal vocalist you can name. Not what Ive heard of Gildenlow.

Range - His high stuff is falsetto, sorry you loose...... He sounds like one of "The Supremes" whos names no one really paid attention too....... I have not heard him sing lower that Tate and what I have heard had no hyner. I realize I need to get more material, but Im just not sure Im willing to lay out the cash. But will for at least one CD to get a better feel for his entire projects.

Raw emotional expression - He does it but I dont feel the conviction I want to hear.

Theres reasons Tate is considered amounst the very best of metals vocalists. I have yet to hear Gildenlow even mentioned. Hes like a song writer that also sings, does experimental freaky things and occasionally puts himself into a song and shows emotional expression.... though abit weak without convincing conviction. Sorry Gildenlow coolade drinkers, YOU LOOSE ! (hes alright)
---------------------------------------------------------

Queensryche did peak with Empire, I wont deny that. A friend has Promised land and its OK, I have Q2K and its OK, love the opening track "Falling Down" However, the vocals are classic Tate all the way, without the extreme high end ear drum popers. But he moved away from that before Empire. It is ashame DeGarmo left. I didnt like the tone the new guy used at all when I saw them live. I havent heard Hear in the Now Frontier & Tribe. I have and like Mindcrime II except for the over extended suicide/death part but I personally believe they made it that way to stress the point.

My favorite Queensryche picks and/or standout Tate songs are Take Hold of the Flame, I will Remember, Operation Mindcrime (song&album), Eyes of a Stranger, Another Rainy Night, Empire (song&album) and my favorite song over all is actually Della Brown... cant explain it, it just is, Im a sucker for what I call that "slow smokey groove"

Yep, Arjen seriously needs to write a role for Geoff Tate and quit the screwing around with the lot of wanna beez............. nananana nana

now playing.....................OPERATION MINDCRIME

 

[Taliwakker]

Best Tate-like voice is John K

check last few seconds of this sample for classic Tate
http://www.balance-of-power.com/resources/media/Heathen_Machine.mp3

http://www.balance-of-power.com/resources/media/Chemical_Imbalance.mp3

 

[Meedleyx10]

yes, I dont do well expressing my thoughts in words and things I say can be taken two opposing ways. If I didnt feel Gildenlow was expressive I would not have made the statement "maybe this is the guy".... now would I ?

Power - I hear him doing alot of soft wispering type singing, very few places have I heard him get loud and powerful and at that, its still weak compared to most frontman. He's also quite buried in the mix, not upfront like most metal singers I can think of. He also does alot of stacking (layering), all kinds of vocal stuff going on. So in the power department I honestly need to question where your coming from, power is Tate, Dickenson, Kiske, Oliva, Stevens, Allen young Robert Plant, Hager, and nearly every other hardrock or metal vocalist you can name. Not what Ive heard of Gildenlow.

Range - His high stuff is falsetto, sorry you loose...... He sounds like one of "The Supremes" whos names no one really paid attention too....... I have not heard him sing lower that Tate and what I have heard had no hyner. I realize I need to get more material, but Im just not sure Im willing to lay out the cash. But will for at least one CD to get a better feel for his entire projects.

Raw emotional expression - He does it but I dont feel the conviction I want to hear.

Theres reasons Tate is considered amounst the very best of metals vocalists. I have yet to hear Gildenlow even mentioned. Hes like a song writer that also sings, does experimental freaky things and occasionally puts himself into a song and shows emotional expression.... though abit weak without convincing conviction. Sorry Gildenlow coolade drinkers, YOU LOOSE ! (hes alright)
---------------------------------------------------------

Queensryche did peak with Empire, I wont deny that. A friend has Promised land and its OK, I have Q2K and its OK, love the opening track "Falling Down" However, the vocals are classic Tate all the way, without the extreme high end ear drum popers. But he moved away from that before Empire. It is ashame DeGarmo left. I didnt like the tone the new guy used at all when I saw them live. I havent heard Hear in the Now Frontier & Tribe. I have and like Mindcrime II except for the over extended suicide/death part but I personally believe they made it that way to stress the point.

My favorite Queensryche picks and/or standout Tate songs are Take Hold of the Flame, I will Remember, Operation Mindcrime (song&album), Eyes of a Stranger, Another Rainy Night, Empire (song&album) and my favorite song over all is actually Della Brown... cant explain it, it just is, Im a sucker for what I call that "slow smokey groove"

Yep, Arjen seriously needs to write a role for Geoff Tate and quit the screwing around with the lot of wanna beez............. nananana nana

now playing.....................OPERATION MINDCRIME

I think it's going to be a while before I go busting Proulski's balls over spelling and such...

I'm not going to go point by point countering your opinions with mine because we could easily do that forever (that, and I'm honestly not sure what you're saying sometimes). As far as the range thing, Daniel definitely has more range, like him or not. You might not like his voice when he goes "hyner"(I'm assuming you mean higher...but seriously, wtf?), but that doesn't really have any bearing on the facts.

NOTE: I apologize if I sound like a prick in mentioning the spelling issues and your problems relating whatever it is you are saying sometimes. I'm guessing English isn't your first language so I'm not trying to insult you for the whole thing.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Kenneth--With Arjen's music, you've got to approach it with tongue firmly in cheek. It's not meant to be serious...the cliches are there for amusement value.

 

[forgottenglory]

I only have Into The Electric Castle, which is one of my favourite rock operas and Star One. I would highly recommend both and can safely say that Avantasia just can't be compared to the superior class of Ayreon...and Ayreon has nothing to do with Power Metal which I'm not fond of either.

 

[razoredge]

Its alright Meedley, I have never been able to spell for shit. I also talk and use good ol American country slang, and a lot of old and I mean old school phrasing. American born and bred with a high school education most of which I forgot all about 25-30 years ago. So theres no point in saying anything about my spelling because I know and have always known I cant spell. People pointing it out only make themselves appear foolish in my eyes because its like, a big...... no shit Sherlock. Take note everyone else I cant spell for shit and really dont care at this point in my life. If you cant figure out what Im saying "try to keep up, would ya! " Its not that complicated. That was friendly sarcastic humor in case anyone cant keep up.


through all of this mayself and a few others have listed or named primier Tate voclas. I have yet to be pointed toward a Gildenlow hot spot, though myself, in all fairness have pointed out a few. So I sit here wondering in my long forgotten, apparently substandard education, "What does this mean?"

hyner mean ASS ! Has no one heard the word hynie, hinny, hyny, highney, hi knee or however the hell it could be spelled.

Your right there is no sense in going point for point because there are few points that could be made on behalf of Gildenlow. If he has more range he needs to learn how to use it. Falsetto is falsetto and a few low notes here and there cant touch Tates work on Empire.That is just the sad facts. Im not being a prick either. Wake me up when Gildenlow sets a vocal bar by which others are compared or inspired by, but please make sure the particular song is identified so I can hear the phenomenon.

 

[Meedleyx10]

Its alright Meedley, I have never been able to spell for shit. I also talk and use good ol American country slang, and a lot of old and I mean old school phrasing. American born and bred with a high school education most of which I forgot all about 25-30 years ago. So theres no point in saying anything about my spelling because I know and have always known I cant spell. People pointing it out only make themselves appear foolish in my eyes because its like, a big...... no shit Sherlock. Take note everyone else I cant spell for shit and really dont care at this point in my life. If you cant figure out what Im saying "try to keep up, would ya! " Its not that complicated. That was friendly sarcastic humor in case anyone cant keep up.

It's not complicated for those who actually want to sit down with a decoder ring and decipher what you are saying. If you're comfortable with that, then more power to you. It's not going to keep me up at night. I mean this in the least insulting way possible (honestly), but I find it kind of sad that someone who claims English as their primary language is content having so much trouble using it.

through all of this mayself and a few others have listed or named primier Tate voclas. I have yet to be pointed toward a Gildenlow hot spot, though myself, in all fairness have pointed out a few. So I sit here wondering in my long forgotten, apparently substandard education, "What does this mean?"

I'm not going to bother listing out tracks and time marks because it's obvious that you're not a big fan of Daniel and I really don't care enough to bother trying to change you're mind. The qualities you say you look for in a vocalist (Tate-like qualities) aren't qualities that Daniel has.

Your right there is no sense in going point for point because there are few points that could be made on behalf of Gildenlow. If he has more range he needs to learn how to use it. Falsetto is falsetto and a few low notes here and there cant touch Tates work on Empire.That is just the sad facts. Im not being a prick either. Wake me up when Gildenlow sets a vocal bar by which others are compared or inspired by, but please make sure the particular song is identified so I can hear the phenomenon.

There aren't facts there, just you trying to rationalize why you don't like the tone of his voice when, in fact, all you need to do is say, "I don't like the tone of his voice" and leave it at that. He knows how to use his voice just fine and the way he uses it is not the result of some deficiency. Pain of Salvation doesn't have nearly as large of an identifiable fanbase, nowhere near the the accessibility, and nowhere near mainstream attention that Queensryche has or have had in the past. Nevermind the fact that they've been putting out albums for far less than half as long as Queensryche had. I don't expect to hear a bunch of upcoming singers attempting to copy Daniel's vocal style and I really don't think that's a very valid grounds to judge on. Unlike Tate, Daniel's voice is inimitable...much in the same way that guitar players like Jeff Beck or Mattias Ia Eklundh are inimitable. There really isn't anyone who can be compared to Daniel. That has nothing to do with the level of talent that Daniel but everything to do with the fact that his voice is so unique.

 

[razoredge]

Geeze! Now I said "I dont like the tone of his voice" ? The point of fact is Geoff Tates vocals have recieved high praise since his first recording, as a phenomenon, for power, timbre, expression, dynamics, and range. You stated you didnt feel he was very expressive, now that is unique and frankly sad. I do not feel Gildenlows voice is unique, his voice sounds, like 100's of pop singers I have heard on the radio over the decades. His music is some what unique and he's some what experimental, or is he just a great melder of multipul influences? I did say hes just not quite up to the standards of the greatest vocalists (unless somebodys talking pop singers as "great"). His recorded career is now 10 years. By Empire, Tates was 7 and all that could be said and heard of Tate was by that time, if not by Op.Mindcrime with only 5 years under his belt. So the point about career lenghts is futile. You say no one can be compared to Gildenlow, and I assume you are talking about singing. I say Gildenlow can be compared to hundreds of pop singers, on up to metals great vocalists but looses points for lack of power, a some what thin sounding voice, falsetto wailings, and lack of convinceable conviction (contrived). A seven on a ten scale. Which is not bad considering the competition.

{I find it interesting that people attack my use of dialog, grammer, spelling and phrasing. Why not just figure Im unique, creative and beyond comparison... call it progressive English... LOL }