Black Metal og satanisme

[TravisW]

I understand that you can't see what lurks beyond christianity, since you are from a country which main religion has been christianity all the time (exception for the native americans, but you get what I mean).

That is an interesting observation--I hope I can shed some light on my own experiences and viewpoints from my side of the Atlantic. Rural North Dakota is, IMHO, culturally very similar to rural Scandinavia. In fact, in places like my hometown when I was a kid there were still plenty of older folks around who spoke Norwegian or Swedish largely due to the fact that most people were Norwegian, and there were some Swedes around. The vast majority of people there are Lutheran but don't regularly attend church, but some are very religious. Anyway, growing up I was quite aware of my heritage and was always terribly intrigued--sometimes obsessed with such subjects as the Vikings, the Norse gods, folklore, etc...such to the degree that when I went to college I had a double-major in Scandinavian Studies as well as history. One thing that I did learn is that although the religion and doctrine changed, the general values of the people really haven't changed that greatly--in fact some things are terribly similar. There are things written in the Eddas that are nearly identical to the book of Proverbs in the Bible. I think the general spirit of the people carried on for many centuries, although the political climate changed. (which had a lot more to do with the establishment of larger kingdoms and entry into the European sphere of influence rather than being based around the more democratic system of tribal government which came before) I think the greatest blow to the Scandinavian values of self-reliance, hardiness, perseverence, and a general sense of adventure came from the Social Welfare system rather than Christianity.

Then again, that's just my opinion.

 

[gcele]

The reason why I hate christianity is because it has destroyed so much - for me - sacred and spiritual things.

So it's a religious matter, not a matter of principals. I'll not waste my breath discussing it.

 

[Harp Heaven]

Guttorm, church-burning cannot possibly be justified with the sins of our ancestors. The clergy and christians today are not responsible for the(admittedly)terrible actions commited in the name of religious intolerance when Norway was christened. I know several christians, and they are some of the most tolerant and lovable people I have ever met. You see, the message preached by christianity was originally a good one. "Do unto others" is a rule I try to follow myself as often as I can. It`s true that atrocities have been commited in the name of it, but the guilt must be placed on the dead, not the living.

 

[Guttorm]

I think you musn´t generalize a religion as a whole, IMO any kind of religion can be ok, as long as it forces people to think more about the things they´re doing and as it helps them to deal with their lives.

It starts getting bad when religion and politics are mixed and religion is used for personal interests. No war has been fought because of religion - religion was just used to find enough silly people being ready to fight for some silly cause. It´s always about something else - territory, water, oil...., and I don´t think, that things have been different 1000 years ago. Religion does not destroy anything, it´s the general stupidity of human beings that destroys, so i do not hate religions, i hate the whole mankind, or at least the ignorant and narrow-minded examples, no matter what religion they have.

I don't agree that any other religion can be ok. If I believe in one thing, I can't just go accept something else, but I guess people are all different. If I get cancer, I don't stop and say "Oh, another system, it may live by my side". Then I would die because of that the cancer soon grows more and more (the cancer could here mean christianity). So, in my case, accepting christianity or any other religions, would mean spiritual death.

Haha, great link by the way

@Travis W - Thanks for sheding some light to the subject, I certainly did not know of such conditions in USA.

But I don't think you can take the Edda and compare it to the bible as a book which represent the standards of the asatro, since the Edda was written quite a long period after Scandinavia became christianized. So, the whole book should be norse myths, but which has been changed to fit with the christian morals and everything. If christianity wouldn't had arrived to Scandinavia and we would still have our old beliefs, I doubt the social welfare system would take the same forms as it has now. Sure, the fact of overpopulation (which results in chopping down forests etc) has of course really nothing to do with religion in any aspect, but the way of looking at it has. In christianity, nature has NO role at all, which means mankind can chop down all the trees they want, without having to get remorse or other bad feelings about it. The only thing that is important within christianity is other humans, whether these are the worsest kind of miscreants or not. And yeah... Of course also the almighty God, which is said to be somewhere up there, and once created the world. Humans is nothing but worthless slaves to God... And if there is no One God (we should have seen him when flying airplanes up in the heaven in that case), then the christians are slaves to their faith, and therefore christianity holds no value. There is nothing that can prove the ideas of christianity, while everything makes sense in the asatro. You can make parallells of Ginnungagap with the big bang-theory for an example.

@Harp Heaven - I think that, when joining church, you automatically become guilty for the deeds that was made back then. Christianity is the same now as it was back then. People should know of christianity's history before joining it, and if they don't like it they should consider to join another religion. The "Do unto others"-message, has always existed, and I fail to see what is has to do with christianity. When you are social, you are nice because you want that person to like you, and it has been so since the dawn of mankind. But it is the "Turn the other cheek around"-message that is typically christian.

 

[Harp Heaven]

I think that, when joining church, you automatically become guilty for the deeds that was made back then. Christianity is the same now as it was back then.

WHAT?!?!?! What planet do you live on? Are you responsible for the invasion of England, to take that as an example? Christianity is certainly not the same as it was back then, it has been forced to change and develop, and even so, I don`t see why people that adhere to the "general belief" of christianity should be responsible for acts commited by christians. That those atrocities were commited by christians does not mean that it is a christian action.

 

[Guttorm]

What I mean is that someone has to pay for what was done back then by that time christians (which still lives on today, in a highly material form). And since I still recognize the nowaday christianity to be awful, the current christian priests would be just those persons. They should just be sent out of here, and we should burn up all churches and other signs of christianity and other religions not belonging here, and then we could start live. My opinion, you may like it or not.

 

[Harp Heaven]

My opinion, you may like it or not.

You are free to live in your fantasy world. Do as you please. I hope to see you killed by some englishmen because the pagan vikings invaded their country over a thousand year ago...

 

[Guttorm]

The englishmen, the irish, and the scots does not suffer anymore, like Scandinavia do. The attacking norsemen left Great Britain (with some exceptions), but christianity has not left Scandinavia.

That's my last words on this subject.

 

[Harp Heaven]

That's my last words on this subject.

And praise the powers that be for that.

 

[Night]

i must say, interesting thread

 

[TravisW]

What I mean is that someone has to pay for what was done back then by that time christians (which still lives on today, in a highly material form). And since I still recognize the nowaday christianity to be awful, the current christian priests would be just those persons. They should just be sent out of here, and we should burn up all churches and other signs of christianity and other religions not belonging here, and then we could start live. My opinion, you may like it or not.

That sounds about like the black people in the USA who want to be repaid because their great-great-great-grandparents were slaves. If I were to take that attitude, I should be holding a great grudge against the Swedes and Danes, because they ruled my ancestors for nearly 500 years. But what does that have to do with me now? Nothing.

Honestly, Guttorm, if somebody elses' beliefs are that threatening to you, the problem probably isn't them.

 

[corrado]

That sounds about like the black people in the USA who want to be repaid because their great-great-great-grandparents were slaves. If I were to take that attitude, I should be holding a great grudge against the Swedes and Danes, because they ruled my ancestors for nearly 500 years. But what does that have to do with me now? Nothing.

If the US would be forced to pay repayment to the black people or to the indians, i think i would have a great laugh, at least for a weak or so....

 

[TravisW]

If the US would be forced to pay repayment to the black people or to the indians, i think i would have a great laugh, at least for a weak or so....

Umm....the US actually does pay repayment to the Indians. The amount they get depends on which tribe they are, and what sort of treaty the tribe held with the government. A Sioux from Ft. Totten, ND would get around $18,000 from the government on their 18th birthday and will continue to be paid monthly until they die. Also, they get free enrollment at State Colleges. Unfortunately, too few take advantage of these opportunities and spend their lives drinking, fighting, and living in squallor.

As for the black people, after the abolishment of slavery, there was the "40 acres and a mule" program of the 1860s and 1870's.

So, you get a free laugh.

 

[corrado]

Hm, not so funny.... I thought about a more spectacular thing, like having Mr. Fagan as lawyer of the black people, with a lot of media and so on, and Las Vegas returned to the Indians, the wearing of Texas Hats not longer allowed, because of the provocative symbolic meaning...that would have been material for a big laugh.

 

[Erik Tiwaz]

Well, the American Indians nearly became extinct because of the Europeans (mainly the Portoguese, Spaniards, French and British). So my take on it is that the U.S government cannot ever pay enough...
The European countries should also chip in on this.
And what you're talking about TravisW is relatively new, fact is that still many tribes have to fight unnessesarily hard for their rights.

 

[Dmanx Pit]

I believe there was an incedent in the 70s with the Native Americans fighting for their rights that was crushed down unecessarily by the FBI, but I'm really not too sure of the specific details.

 

[corrado]

As far as I know, the rights of the Indians can easily be bent to the will of the governement. And, Repayment may be difficult and expensive: What is the worth of a whole continent?

 

[TravisW]

In the 1970's, Leonard Peltier was convicted for shooting an FBI agent on one of the Sioux reservations in western South Dakota. He was part of a movement in the 70's called AIM (the American Indian Movement). There's evidence on either side of the argument when it comes to whether Peltier or the FBI were aggressors in that instance, so I really haven't formed a solid opinion on that issue.

As it goes with American Indians, I grew up right between 2 reservations (one Sioux, one Chippewa) and neither of them are nice places. It's easy to say that they shouldn't have been disposessed of their land--of course they shouldn't. Unfortunately, that is the case, and we have to work with the situation that exists--that situation being that a large percentage of people on the Res use their government checks to buy whatever food they need, booze or drugs, and some sort of transportation. It's really a very sad situation, and much sadder when you see it all the time. I don't think throwing money at these people is helping them one bit. It is merely a band-aid for a much more significant problem--that problem being that by "paying back" the tribes, oftentimes the government is contributing far more significantly to the demise of Native Peoples than if they just let them be. I'd personally like to see the Tribal governments get their shit straight and start some initiatives from within the reservation to try and clear up the substance abuse, the unemployment, the violence, etc...and try to regain some ground again. I think it can be done, but they have to do it for themselves---it cannot be done for them.

 

[demon talented]

In christianity, nature has NO role at all, which means mankind can chop down all the trees they want, without having to get remorse or other bad feelings about it.

Generally, nature does have a role in Christianity, but it's not entirely pleasant (like you were saying or trying to say, essentially). It's something generally to exploit, as it could be seen as a gift from God or what have you. I, personally, do not appreciate the attitude such extents as it is often taken.

(By the way, I'd still never condone Church burning. It won't get you anywhere anyway and just shows irrationality when approaching the subject.)

 

[Yetti]

i cannot understand the first 5 posts because i do not speak norwegian, but this is quite possibly the dumbest thing i have ever read:
"Death metal percussionists often add a strict machinism to their work with the alternating full bass hits of oppositional kick drums, creating an undulating wall of sound that conditions listeners to act out the diabolical bidding of the bands and their master, Satan."