Capitalism vs Communism

[Prismatic Sphere]

Great overview index page I found for the uninformed/semi-informed on libertarianism.
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/libertarianism.html

Here is an excerpt:

C2. Don't strong property rights just favor the rich?

No. What favors the rich is the system we have now -- a fiction of strong property rights covering a reality of property by government fiat; the government can take away your "rights" by eminent domain, condemnation, taxation, regulation and a thousand other means. Because the rich have more money and time to spend on influencing and subverting government, such a system inevitably means they gain at others' expense. A strong government always becomes the tool of privilege. Stronger property rights and a smaller government would weaken the power elite that inevitably seeks to seduce government and bend it to their own self-serving purposes --- an elite far more dangerous than any ordinary criminal class.

 

[Death Aflame]

I don't want to go through the Marx squabbles again, but I think he has contributed many ideas of worth (along with advocating some terrible economic policies, and overly rigid Hegelian philosophical systems). Some of which have influenced post-structural theorists that I find really interesting like Slavoj Zizek.

Chomsky actually got me into anarchism. He claims to be an anarchist and has written much about the oppressive nature of states throughout the world. Some of his most famous work like Manufacturing Consent I think is quite important as well (taking Gramscian cultural hegemony theory and broadening it to contemporary late capitalist society). In general I agree with his critique of American foreign policy as well. He is an important thinker, and again I think it is short-sighted to throw him under the bus because you don't agree with some of his views. I really do not like Mises, for instance, but he had some worthwhile ideas.

Ayn Rand, on the other hand, to me may be what Karl Marx is to PS, I cannot stand her or the vast majority of her key ideas.

PS, I think you should read this essay by Benjamin Tucker: "State Socialism and Anarchism: How far they Agree, and Wherein they Differ." http://praxeology.net/BT-SSA.htm

His economics is based on the cost principle, and I suspect as Misean that you would probably reject such a basis since it is not the marginal utility/subjective approach in name. But in my view, such a perspective has significant merit and is too often rejected as the equivalent of a Marxian Labour Theory of Value, when it actually takes more influence from Smith and Ricardo while emphasizing the subjective nature of determining cost.

He also bashes Marx for his authoritarianism, which I am sure you will enjoy as well.

 

[Prismatic Sphere]

Ayn Rand, on the other hand, to me may be what Karl Marx is to PS, I cannot stand her or the vast majority of her key ideas.

C'mon. You and I both know it's only because she's a woman.

 

[Badbird]

Can't stand Ayn Rand neither Death Aflame. And I like Chomsky and Adam Smith as well when it comes to Philosophy/political stuff.

 

[Fortvivlaan]

In my opinion, Democratic Socialism is the only form of government that would work indefinitely.

 

[Prismatic Sphere]

My only wish is that people would start waking up to the inanity and irrationality of socialism and Keynesian economics with the same amount of rapidity as those who are waking up to the bullshit of religion.

Sadly and evidently, not so.

 

[Dak]

Apparently people like having their money taken.

 

[Death Aflame]

Apparently people like having their money taken.

Fair point. Though I find many vulgar libertarians fail to take this idea to its logical conclusion--e.g. it is the norm for many businesses to appropriate the surplus value largely created by workers/employees.

This, in part, is why I am in favor of a cooperative model of the firm over traditional top-down hierarchical structures.

 

[Kara-Shehr]

Apparently people like having their money taken.

Not I. Said the cat.

 

[Maxim1110]

It's funny how liberalism/capitalism failed hopelessly in the past few years and there are still so many who indefinitely believe in it, whereas all those "socialist" European countries hardly got affected (at least, not so much as the US did) and are mostly the wealthiest and overall happiest countries in the world.

 

[Prismatic Sphere]

I'm gonna leave this last post ^ to someone else because I can't stop laughing.

 

[monoxide_child]

It's funny how liberalism/capitalism failed hopelessly in the past few years and there are still so many who indefinitely believe in it, whereas all those "socialist" European countries hardly got affected (at least, not so much as the US did) and are mostly the wealthiest and overall happiest countries in the world.

europe wealthier and happier than usa???
when did that happen???

 

[Maxim1110]

No, you are kidding me?

Fuck, I didn't know you Americans were even that ignorant.

 

[Maxim1110]

Also, quoting from the 2010 HDI list, adjusted with equality index:

Norway 0.876
Australia 0.864
Sweden 0.824
Netherlands 0.818
Germany 0.814
Switzerland 0.813
Ireland 0.813
Canada 0.812
Iceland 0.811
Denmark 0.810
Finland 0.806
United States 0.799

Furthermore, since 1990 the only countries that have ever made it to the number 1 spot are Norway, Iceland, Canada and Japan.

EDIT: And life expectancy, another one at which the US scores rather low:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

It's ok to have the best doctors in the world, but if hardly anyone has got access to that healthcare because they can't pay it that's not really of any use. For many poor Americans, being diagnosed with a bad disease such as cancer means being bankrupt. Here that means that you're gonna get the best treatment they can give you, no matter if you can pay it.

 

[monoxide_child]

No, you are kidding me?

Fuck, I didn't know you Americans were even that ignorant.

i was trying to point out that you made a sweeping blanket statement by saying "europe" instead of naming individual european countries

 

[Maxim1110]

You weren't very accurate there then. But I admit, my statement wasn't entirely correct either. I was indeed speaking of western European countries. Many eastern European countries (eg. Romania, Bulgaria) are having a hard time atm.

 

[Prismatic Sphere]

I frankly amazed that no one brought up either Greece or France.

 

[Dak]

I'm still laughing at the suggestion that Europe is better off than the US. The US is faaaaaar from perfect, but the further we get from perfect, the closer we get to European standards.

Perfect is obviously subjective, but there is nothing about Euro living that appeals to me over what I have here already.

 

[Prismatic Sphere]

I'm still laughing at the suggestion that Europe is better off than the US. The US is faaaaaar from perfect, but the further we get from perfect, the closer we get to European standards.

Perfect is obviously subjective, but there is nothing about Euro living that appeals to me over what I have here already.

Agreed. Save less drug prohibition, less Jesus folatio, and girls younger than 18 blowing kisses to you through the front windows.

 

[Maxim1110]

I'm still laughing at the suggestion that Europe is better off than the US. The US is faaaaaar from perfect, but the further we get from perfect, the closer we get to European standards.

Perfect is obviously subjective, but there is nothing about Euro living that appeals to me over what I have here already.

Lol sure, keep on dreaming