Capitalism vs Communism
- Thread starter Norsemaiden
- Start date
Health care, education, life expectancy etc. The most important things, basically.
EDIT: see this as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_employment_rate
EDIT: see this as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_employment_rate
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
Dak
mentat
Nice try but fail.
I don't believe in/barely use the modern medical system (so why would I want more "health care"?). Life expectancy is based off personal choices (except in cases of war, etc. derpa derp), not bequeathed by land mass or government. Formal education is highly overrated. I am employed(and a good paying job at that).
So, again, why would I want to be in the Netherlands? The Netherlands also have a debt to GDP ratio of over 300%. That's sustainable and like, totally evidence of awesome governance
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
Any question of rights always boils down to the same thing: property.
When anyone claims health care as a right, the property in question is the skills of medically trained professionals. So for anyone to come in and demand that "medical rights" be granted to them; that would be akin to approaching a guy in a white coat off of the street and demanding that he or she conducts a back-muscle exam just for shits & giggles even though Dr. Shapiro just got off work.
Those who don't see the inherent immorality involved in this schema are either seriously deluded or have an irrational sense of entitlement.
When anyone claims health care as a right, the property in question is the skills of medically trained professionals. So for anyone to come in and demand that "medical rights" be granted to them; that would be akin to approaching a guy in a white coat off of the street and demanding that he or she conducts a back-muscle exam just for shits & giggles even though Dr. Shapiro just got off work.
Those who don't see the inherent immorality involved in this schema are either seriously deluded or have an irrational sense of entitlement.
monoxide_child
New Metal Member
- Jul 30, 2008
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Nice try. That's a popular prejudice of The Netherlands. Everyone is always stoned here and there are prostitutes everywhere. The truth is that only soft drugs (next to alcohol and sigarettes, which aren't prohibited in the US either) are allowed here. They do absolutely no harm. Actually, I find it more annoying when someone smokes a sigarette than when someone smokes a joint.
First of all, let's get one thing clear. The US probably has the best doctors in the world, no doubt. That's really awesome and all, especially if you are employed and have a good salary. That's the point: as long as you've got enough money you'll be perfectly fine in the US.Nice try but fail.
I don't believe in/barely use the modern medical system (so why would I want more "health care"?). Life expectancy is based off personal choices (except in cases of war, etc. derpa derp), not bequeathed by land mass or government. Formal education is highly overrated. I am employed(and a good paying job at that).
So, again, why would I want to be in the Netherlands? The Netherlands also have a debt to GDP ratio of over 300%. That's sustainable and like, totally evidence of awesome governance
And that's exactly where the problem lies. What are you gonna do when you're unemployed and diagnosed with, for example, cancer? Families goes bankrupt over that. And many people just keep themselves locked up in their confined spaces with their own friends and family. As long as they're fine and healthy, no problem at all.
Of course you're employed. That's all fine. But we weren't exactly talking about you here. About 32% of the US is unemployed, as opposed to 24% in The Netherlands and a little over 20% in Switzerland. That´s the problem with ignorance: people who weren't or were barely affected by the crisis don't see or don't want to see the results it brought to many others.
The US certainly also has the best universities. Actually, the number one (according to the list I looked up yesterday) is Cambridge in the UK, but the rest in the top 10 are almost exclusively American universities such as Harvard, Yale and Princeton. That's really nice and all, but how much will you actually have to pay to get in there? We had an exchange student from the US coming over to The Netherlands here last year. He was from Cleveland, but wasn't going to Michigan University because of the immense costs (if I'm not mistaken over tens of thousands of dollars a year). Instead, he was going to New Orleans. That (if I remember right) would cost him "only" 15,000 dollars a year.
Now let's look at what I would pay for going to Leiden University, Nijmegen University or Amsterdam University here in The Netherlands. The website of the studyfinancing said I would have a depth of about 3,000 euros after 5 years of Philosophy at Nijmegen University. No, it's not in the top 10 of best universities in the world (it is in the top 100 if I'm not mistaken), but let's be honest about it: it's not a bad university either.
Lol, good question. I actually saw a funny graph some time ago. It basically came down to the fact that 99% of Europe and the US was the same and that 1% that wasn't was the source of about 99% of all the internet trolling.
But seriously, to get things clear: I absolutely don't think communism is the best political/economical system there is, but libertarianism and capitalism sure as hell doesn't work indefinitely either.
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
That is true only when libertarianism/capitalism are unanchored and can be manipulated via mysticism. But a mystic-free libertarian society would work indefinitely because it would mean that man would be entirely free to exert his own, natural, unregulated, unabashed, guilt-free production of competitive values for others and society.
Dak
mentat
Cancer is not the weird boogeyman people think it is, and I take steps to mitigate the known causes. Regardless, I don't believe it is societies responsibility to pick me up when I fall down. I definitely didn't grow up privileged, and I turned down unemployment and food stamps while unemployed because we were able to barely get by on my wifes income.
So don't think I am speaking from some ivory tower. Many people in the US are unemployed because they choose to be.
Why is it so important to waste any money on a university? The books can be purchased and read without the aid of some old guy with outdated ideas and subjectorial tunnel vision to "steer" you in his preferred direction.
You completely ignored my post information regarding the debt and taxes problem in the Netherlands. Your "cheap" university is paid for by 60% taxation, and your country has an extremely high debt to gdp ratio. Those figures are simply not sustainable, and if I lived somewhere with 60% taxation and comprehensive welfare you bet your ass I sure as hell wouldn't be working, and anyone who would keep working for less than half their wage is a fucking fool.
Of course, if everyone smartened up and did so, the system would instantly collapse. So it's a shitty system, but it takes fools to support a shitty system. Congratulations.
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
Failure to honestly integrate reality, simply put.
Giving credence to those who seek to destroy values rather than produce values(politicians, theologians, many lawyers, journalists, professors and social "intellectuals" - people who produce nothing) who maintain their pathetic existences by foisting guilt and shame on value producers to usurp unearned values from others in the name of humanitarianism, justice, the "greater good", peace, or whatever the hell they are promoting that day.
Without such people mucking up the works, man would then be free and able to guiltlessly prosper, producing maximum benefits for others and society, and finally be able to happily enjoy the rewards of his efforts.
Death Aflame
voice of dissent
- Feb 1, 2004
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PS, you sound dangerously close to advocating a form of narrow or what is more popularly known as 'thin' libertarianism--a picture of idealistic freedom that ignores issues of social justice, class, race, and oppression by fetishizing a conception of economic 'freedom' (which usually means some form of actually-existing capitalism minus the welfare state).
I think the logical alternative is thick libertarianism: an ideology that does not ignore the issues I have listed above as mere 'side effects' of an otherwise perfect system, but rather one that embraces an understanding of oppression not just in its manifest forms (e.g. where it violates negative freedom), but in its latent forms as well. In other words, what is needed is a more substantive form of libertarianism, which is why I, in part, subscribe to left libertarianism and libertarian socialism in some sense as well.
I think the logical alternative is thick libertarianism: an ideology that does not ignore the issues I have listed above as mere 'side effects' of an otherwise perfect system, but rather one that embraces an understanding of oppression not just in its manifest forms (e.g. where it violates negative freedom), but in its latent forms as well. In other words, what is needed is a more substantive form of libertarianism, which is why I, in part, subscribe to left libertarianism and libertarian socialism in some sense as well.
Kara-Shehr
Member
- Sep 2, 2010
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I smoke about one pack of cigarettes a day, I can assure you that they are indeed harmful.
Well said if I'm reading it correctly. Self education is essential nowadays. I feel that many people have chosen college as their only way out of their situation or the only way to get a decent job. It is possible but you can make a decent living without a degree. Besides do you really need a Master's degree nowadays? Is college really a worth spending thousands of dollars just so you can spend the next decade or so trying to pay it back? For some people they just can't afford that.
In America sometimes the assholes get to win. That's what makes it fun and interesting. But I get what you're saying I think, people who make everything stagnant need to fuck off.
monoxide_child
New Metal Member
- Jul 30, 2008
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i have 2 seperate questions here
1) would you have taken the unemployment and the foodstams if both you and your wife lost your incomes simutaniously???
2) if your wife's income was low enough that you qualified for the unemployment and foodtamps, what was your motivation for refusing them???
Dak
mentat
Yes.I would not have my family starve. Since the government taxes everyone to redistribute, people do not have the spare income they could to voluntarily help others.
Motivation for refusing them? That they weren't a necessity for survival. Most people get on them so they can afford new flat panel TVs and cable.
Badbird
Never banned
Communism failed because it's against natural selection. You're no longer making a society of good people, but of people who can't do anything well. Government always reaches out to such people. It's why all the new political philosophies are semi-anarchists and Social Darwinistic (like Libertarianism).
modernsappho
New Metal Member
- Mar 29, 2011
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I don't believe that any country can function without a healthy balance of Socialism and Capitalism. Socialism ensures, or tries to ensure that people can at least obtain the necessities of life; Health care/insurance, and in some places even money, food, and shelter. Capitalism ensures that, with enough effort, and the blessing of the people (Market), people can aspire to more. It is important for people to be able to make money and do what they want with it. To be able to invest their money where they want, create businesses, etc etc. I believe that Socialism needs to be fine tuned though...So that those who really deserve such services (Social Security, for example) are receiving it...And not those who will eat up resources and put their country more into debt. It's not enough for someone to be poor. I believe those with passion or drive for something (Though the disabled, and elderly may be excluded) should receive it.
As I said, Socialism and Capitalism should both be a part of any economy.
As I said, Socialism and Capitalism should both be a part of any economy.
Peter Joseph
New Metal Member
- Jun 29, 2011
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My Venus Project is to put both elements of socialism and capitalism to the test. Every nation needs a little of both and if you don't you are doomed to survieve the future. I find both systems to be hurtful to the people and I want the system to go where no system has gone before.
