Circus Maximus availability

[Harvester]

Ok..time for me to go off on a rant.


Quote- why not make every track standard?


I would assume you skipped the part about how a licensing agreement works in my reply. If you do not have distribution in a foreign terriorty, you have to license your product to a label that does. Otherwise, you would only get your product in shops that specialize in imports. When a foreign label takes on your product, they pay a fee UP FRONT. In order to make sure they make their money back, most want something special to make that disc appeal a bit more, especially if there are cheaper alternatives such as importing from the States.


QUOTE- if you have regional distro, and every track is standard, except for what ive heard about japan(though that may be changing with rampant piracy, like they're doing in mexico and china), it will be cheaper to buy the domestic cd


"If" is the key word. In our genres, you do not have worldwide distribution via a single label except a handful (SPV, CMedia, etc.). Even those companies license out to South American labels like Hellion.


QUOTE- currently, the market isn't buyer friendly. if they made the market more geared to pleasing the buyer, instead of annoying the people that like the band, the recording industry may enjoy a boost in confidence and buying. personally, screw bonus material, thats what MCD's and EP's are for.

This is a utopian bubble boy statement (no personal offence meant) . Nobody holds a gun to your head and says buy it. Smaller labels do what they have to do to survive in a download it for free enviroment. You convince everyone to stop illegal downloading and I'll convince all the labels to stop with the bonus material. I'm not saying you do it specifically, but I'm generalizing just as you are.


QUOTE- SA is one of the few bands I know that releases enough supplemental MCD's and EP's to cover a lot of the bonus tracks and edits they put on some of their cds. this is more pleasing than having just regional bonus tracks and maybe a single or two, but it's not as pleasing as just standardizing it across the board. i could actually support my local indie metal store then rather than buying from a foreign shop or off caiman/amazon paying 50% to 100% more[/QUOTE]

Have you considered that the other side is that it is annoying to have to buy an entire new disc of bonus shit when they could have stuck it on the original release instead? Also, why do you think the band and label release those eps? Just so you can have the bonus material? Hell no, they want to maximize their profits as well.


I agree that the music business is a sham at times. However, I also believe fans are spoiled as hell in the internet day where instant gratificiation is all that matters.

I'm a fan first. However, I have learned that without the business side, these bands/labels will not survive.

Glenn H.

 

[J-Dubya 777]

That said, the U.S. version has the superior bonus track. :Smug:

Glenn H.

Circus Maximus is doing a Superior cover tune? Which one? :Spin:

Oh, you mean the BETTER tune, I get it........

 

[Nightmare1z]

Their all good points Glenn - and I'm strongly against downloading music myself. I just don't do it.

However, I think the people are making valid complaints here. And yes, we're thinking from a consumer standpoint. But should we be forced to think from a business standpoint? I'm sorry, but spending another $14 for one track to help the label and/or band is just not economically possible for me to do with every band out there. I get the logistics of it, but I feel that we're just echoing what the majority of people think.

There are those who buy every version to help sales and labels in spots. Example: Chris Caffery's Faces. I know people that have bought both the European and US releases. Not just for the bonus track, but to help sales and The End Records *I think they're main US distributor* with the release.

I'm not the "true" internet fan like you said. But I still have a problem with these bonus tracks. I understand everything you said - but I'm a consumer FIRST. I can't spend every hour of my day pondering over purchases on who should benefit from my purchase. Example - do I buy a shirt from a retailer, or do I buy it from a mom and pop company that way they get a profit in the tough industry they're in.

Point stands, we're all consumers first. Yes, we should be considering the number of sales in concern with downloading and that it could hurt labels potentially. But as long as I buy one CD version, have I not done my part in supporting the band and label with that CD? Can I not have a problem with the fact that I technically now have to choose what exclusive track I want if I don't want to double dip? The business world is tough, but I don't think that we can say only internet fans have a problem with this.

 

[Kenneth R.]

i think you missed his point (and mine) a second time... you don't have to buy anything.

if it were album tracks, you might have a point. but we're talking about bonus stuff here. its just that. Bonus. what if they released no bonus tracks? that'd solve the problem. if you care so much to get both tracks then i don't know what to say, but personally i'm just glad that there's a bonus on there when i buy it. Glenn made excellent points...

 

[Nightmare1z]

Quote Laser:
"The two versions will differ slightly by one track - each release will have an exclusive song."

An exclusive is something given to one to make it better.

A bonus is "Something given or paid in addition to what is usual or expected."

This is being marketed as an exclusive - meaning you are paying for it. This is not a bonus track, which is more something they just throw on as an extra.

The point is that you think we can't complain about it. It's the whole "Don't like it, don't buy it"

People say the same thing to people when they're doing anything "If you don't like it, do better"

Why the hell does everyone think you can't have an opinion if you don't like the fact? I'm not going to buy both - but I'm not going to be like "Oh yeah! 2 versions! Awesome!". I'm going to state the fact that it doesn't please me.

Again, I get Glenn's points - but read mine. I'm not arguing the fact "don't buy them" that you make. I'm arguing the fact how people don't like it and are complaining and I'm justifying it. Granted there might be some one side thinking here, but it is these one side thinkers that keep the labels in business.

If people can't take complaints (labels included), then the music business is not for you.

 

[TheWhisper]

First, I don't think anyone, certainly not me, is slamming Ken or Sensory. As I stated in my first post, I understand the way these things work with bonus tracks, but I was responding to someone else about buying different versions to get the other bonus song. People, though, have to realise that opinions are going to be expressed on message boards(that is what they're for,right?).

Ken is a businessman, and believe me, I understand that business is not a charity deal...it's about making money. I'm all for the small business and hope for nothing but success to anyone who decides to become an entrepreneur. I think the people on this board appreciate the people out there, like Ken & Sensory, who do what they do for this kind of music.

As for downloading bonus tracks, if you've bought one version of any given cd and d/l a bonus track track from a different version, I have no problem with this. As long as you've paid for the album, I think it is fine. That's just my opinion...others opinions may differ.

 

[Harvester]

but read mine.

I did and I understand where you are coming from. I simply want to represent the other side of the coin even though I don't have anything to gain from it.

I think your "exclusive vs bonus" arguement is pure semantics that you can interpet anyway you want. He has to do what he has to do to survive. If his policies fail, then his label fails. It is indeed up to the consumer to decide that.

However, I think in the age of downloading and importing that you forget the distribution side of it. The album is not being sold in the States as two versions. You are importing from the other side of the world to get the other album and only the fanatical that have to have everything are going to do that. The "forced to buy two versions" is not the intent when you are doing business on different continents.

Would I like to have all the bonus cuts that are available on the Japanese releases? Of course. However, I don't but I don't crucify the label because of it.

 

[Harvester]

As for downloading bonus tracks, if you've bought one version of any given cd and d/l a bonus track track from a different version, I have no problem with this. As long as you've paid for the album, I think it is fine. That's just my opinion...others opinions may differ.

I agree with you on this and have argued that a domestic release should have some sort of link in the sleeve with a download link/code for the bonus material.

Glenn H.

 

[MetalAges]

While I haven't had quit the success that Ken has developed with his label I have to say 100% of what he says (in just the knowledge I gained over a couple years), and as well Glenn, is 110% correct. As Ken says it is "a necessary evil". Without things like this (whether bonus, exclusive, video tracks etc.) half the bands out there as well as labels would not be here, or would not enjoy moderate success in many cases. Example, slightly different perspective:

I was offered several releases for licensing in the USA and the first thing I asked is "what can I have extra?". Why in the world would I license an album that most vendors here can import cheaply? Sure I could get sales on my product too but... if Ken at Laser's Edge or any other vendor here in the USA who is already buying a ton of product from a particular vendor in Europe, and can get the Euro release of the same album I am licensing for almost the same as he could from me, who do you think he will buy wholesale from if the material on the album is the same between Euro/USA? He can order it from Euro and save on the discounted overall shipping, pay almost the same if not cheaper pricing and also not have to fool with a separate order from me. It would kill my sales and I would be stuck with a ton of product. No way in Hell I am licensing an album with the same content. Business is business and yes, consumers may get ticked off about it, especially the collector side of us, but it isn't intended in cases like this for you to have to buy two copies. It is intended to make sure licensing labels in their respective countries have somewhat of a guarantee that will be able to make their money back. Period.

Now, when labels start releasing live album after live album and putting out multiple versions of the same disc in the same Country then you start to have a valid point about trying to get the consumer to pay out more on the various versions.

 

[Nightmare1z]

I plugged your store Deron!!! Does that get me anything?!

Yeah, my whole bonus vs exclusive really is me just being a pain in the ass. But you do homework for college all day on Easter and try not being cranky!



The only thing I offer to Glenn's post is that for the type of metal we listen too, many of us buy online anyways. Most of these sites already get the imports at regular price, so that's more or less how you can have access to both versions.

Still - I think the point of this thread has gone way adrift. We're supposed to be talking about the Circus Maximus release and not the politics of the label business!

 

[MetalAges]

Hehe. Hey man buy me out for $6 a disc (450 or so left) and you can start your own store! I'm selling out my stock and closing the store down. Any takers?

 

[TheWhisper]

Well, since Glenn has already let on that the US version has the better bonus track...screw Frontiers

 

[lasercd]

Gentlemen:

There seems to be a wealth of mis-information in this thread. Let me give you some insight as to what is going on with the Circus Maximus release. At the moment there are two versions that will be available in the world. The core album is the same for all releases that will be manufactured. That is "The First Chapter" as it was conceived by the band. It was decided that we would utilize some of the demo tracks as bonus material. Tommy Hansen remixed them. There are three tracks... Frontiers will get one...Sensory will get one...and the third one will sit on the shelf until we need to offer it to another licensee.

This is purely added value. No one is making you buy multiple copies of the disc. The alternative was to include NO BONUS MATERIAL. Right now the dollar is getting hammered. Essentially we are protecting Frontiers' release. Otherwise dealers/distributors would try to import the less expensive Sensory version and we don't want that. At the same time we didn't want anyone in our territories to feel like they were not getting a bonus. The bottom line is we are protecting ourselves as well.

If you live in Europe you should be picking up the Frontiers version. If you live in another part of the world I would hope you pick up the Sensory version.

So let me repeat...option 1 was include ZERO extra material....option 2 was each release gets an extra track.

So without furthering what has developed into a juvenile debate I'll sum up by saying that this is the choice we made and we are comfortable with it. Nightmare1z - you seem to feel as though we are looking to screw you over. We are trying to do something positive. Please don't try to turn it into a negative.

Peace be with us,

Ken Golden
The Laser's Edge/Sensory
www.lasercd.com

 

[bhcompy]

What most of us are saying is that to the consumer/fan, when music of the band is withheld from the fan(because that is what ultimately happens), they feel they aren't getting the experience they deserve. If it's on one album, why not the one in USA as well? To me, it's almost an insult. But, we still like the band so we still buy the material.

It's like gasoline. Nobody is a fan of OPEC, but until we reform the process, we still have to give them a lot of money. I'm hoping that, eventually, there's an overhaul in distribution to allow everyone access to all the material, because restricting the material is very nearly a slap in a face(you're in US, you're not good enough for this. you're in japan, you deserve extra. you're in europe, you get this but not that. etc)

And as for singles, what I was saying Glenn is that I HATE being forced to import discs of the same album in order to get the FULL ALBUM experience. A band like Sonata still has those regional bonus tracks(thank god none on Reckoning Night except a little play track), but they also release much cheaper MCD's and EP's that give you a few versions of a song, a cover or two, and the bonus tracks. Instead of buying two full-length, or downloading songs, I can spend 5-10bux to get a short length with the same stuff and still be happy supporting the band. I don't like being in that position, but I like it MORE than the other position, where it feels like I'm developing a pink-sock.

 

[Kenneth R.]

dude.

you're just not getting it.

Glenn said it.
Ken said it.
Deron said it.

i'll use your example:

you're in US, you're not good enough for this. you're in japan, you deserve extra. you're in europe, you get this but not that. etc)

its not like that. its like this.

You're in the US, you get this extra track. You're in Japan, you get that extra track. You're in Europe, you get this other extra track. everybody gets extra. everybody SHOULD be happy. its nice of them to even release this stuff. Ken said they were DEMOS. that means not-part-of-the-album. you aren't entitled to it, its EXTRA. you may never have heard of it if he didn't expressly say there were 2 or 3 demos.

you all are very ungrateful customers. you make it seem like when a label releases an album, it should come with concert tickets, a shirt, stickers and a poster all as your "rightfully deserved" bonus. take a look at yourselves.

 

[bhcompy]

First, ingrateful my ass. Who's asking for a dvd and concert tickets? I'm asking for equality in product.

I don't understand why every cd can't be the same? Why just not have extra tracks. Put every track on every cd, instead of hurting the fan by putting extra tracks on different cds and forcing the people who love the band to purchase multiple versions or pirate them? You say it's our choice, and forcing that choice on us is an insult to the people that fund the industry. These are songs, you say extra, I say just another song. Without this song, I'm not getting the full experience. I'm getting a partial experience for my fully paid album. That's not being ingrateful, that's being a concerned consumer who wants the full experience for the large price he pays for the album.

Look, if everyone gets a bonus track anyways, WHY do this? Originally, from what I've read, it happened in asia because of domestic label pricing being absurd for whatever reason. But now it's a worldwide thing, and the pricing between europe and the us is not that much different, and when you factor in import fees, the import costs more.

 

[Harvester]

I don't understand why every cd can't be the same? .

OY!

You seemed to skip over the economical implications of licensing and international distribution via satellite labels posts from myself, Ken, and Deron.

There is not a single rational rebuttal to any of those points in your replies. "It should all be the same so I get the full experience" argument is moot when discussing the REALITY of business economics.

Glenn H.

 

[lady_space]

While I do understand the "it's extra" argument, I also understand that it often seems a ploy by a label to get consumers to purchase more than 1 disc, and I think it soemtimes is just that.

That said, don't even ask me how many different versions of certain things I own. I'll be looking forward to whatever version of Circus Maximum is made available.

 

[Kenneth R.]

While I do understand the "it's extra" argument, I also understand that it often seems a ploy by a label to get consumers to purchase more than 1 disc, and I think it soemtimes is just that.

That said, don't even ask me how many different versions of certain things I own. I'll be looking forward to whatever version of Circus Maximum is made available.

bhcompy doesn't seem to "get" it. i don't think any amount of explaining/arguing will help either.

i know i for one will be buying the Sensory version...

 

[bhcompy]

you say licensing and international distribution, yet, i imagine they choose the best qualified bidder and that group gets sole distribution rights to that country/continent. when i look at pricing, lets say at caiman, which sells imports and domestics, i could have bought manticora us version with no "bonus" for 9bux or bought asian(melodic) with a bonus track(and a good song to boot) for 23. i bought the asian version because of the forced bonus, eventhough it was more expensive, so i get the full experience and value.

how do economics factor into this? some distro label spent the money to license it to the us and the product was selling for 9bux. the same product with an extra track, imported, was selling for double. does it cost the local label double to include that extra track? no way in hell. they would still have a cheaper price and the local people would still buy from that label because of it. but instead, i dont want to support the label because they're forcing a lesser album down my throat, so my money goes to some out of country label and the cycle continues, with the hand being influenced by the labels.

it costs more to import than distribute locally, so whats the big deal?