On the subject of french comics... got quite abit of Enki Bilal stuff yesterday. Classic stuff. Traded in DC New 52 single issues for them. Well worth it 
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Comics!
- Thread starter Vilden
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So, I've been doing some Star Wars comic binging since last weekend. I reread Crimson Empire and the X-Wing: Rogue Squadron comics (after rereading the first three novels
) and now I've decided to keep indulging myself and begin to reread one of my favorite comic series of all time: Star Wars: Republic.Now, I know that plenty of people have a distaste for the prequels for reasons that range from understandable to ridiculous, but this series, along with several others, portrays the era in ways that I think the prequels didn't take advantage of. Honestly, I never found the films to be too bad (hell, Revenge of the Sith is one of my favorites in the saga) but they could have done some things better. First, the characterization is pretty well-rounded. When John Ostrander and William Haden Blackman (and a couple others) wrote for this series (and several other acclaimed ones), they offered fleshed-out and believable interpretations of the characters that were shown in the films while still making them enjoyable. Even the characters that were new at the time like Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress receive fantastic arcs of their own that have very satisfying conclusions.
Also, the action is also really great. If you liked some of the grand scenes of warfare at the end of Attack of the Clones and the ones featured in Revenge of the Sith, you will not be disappointed. The scale combined with Jan Duursema's excellent art design, perfectly display the brutality of the Clone Wars. There is a real sense of grit to much of it which helps immerse the reader into the setting.
However, it doesn't just improve on the source material there. It also manages to make the politics interesting. I know. Remember Chancellor Valorum? That guy that was apparently important in the The Phantom Menace that was only mentioned and then never mentioned again? Well, he has an entire storyline with Bail Organa in this series...and it's awesome. Honestly, what makes the politics work here is due to the fact that they are framed through a lens which actually makes them intriguing. Politics isn't foreign to Star Wars (hell, there was more in A New Hope than your average space fantasy flick during the '70s) but, like any good story, it needed good writers and that prerequisite was fulfilled.
Now, you may be wondering, "Holy shit, Talos. What's with this somewhat lengthy review that just came out of nowhere?". Well, that's a good question. I'm sure some of you are probably familiar with the series titled The Clone Wars (not to be confused with Genndy Tartakovsky's microseries) which aired on Cartoon Network that was cancelled before it managed to reach the Battle of Coruscant in Episode III. As a part of the new canon after Disney's acquisition of Lucasfilm, that series effectively replaced Republic. Meaning, that Republic (and many other stories) have been relegated to a non-canon Legends status. This kind of puts this comic series and most of Dark Horse's other contributions to Star Wars in obscurity. The retcon happened in 2013 when I was in my sophomore year of high school. I was already familiar with much of the now-Legends material long beforehand and I was a huge fan of them. While I do like the films, a lot of the reason why I remained a Star Wars fan was due to the stuff released by Bantam, Dark Horse and Del Rey. Because of that, I thought I may share some opinions and a recommendation regarding an excellent comics experience from the previous continuity.
There is also my rather negative opinion of The Clone Wars TV show that I have to admit. In earnest, I find much of TCW to be sanitized, monotonous and boring. Some of the action is pretty good but nothing even comes close to approaching Republic (or Tartakovsky's fight sequences in Clone Wars), the Confederacy of Independent Systems is completely nonthreatening and never really achieves that many victories (and if so, Pyrrhic ones at best), General Grievous is reduced to an incompetent coward in comparison to his Legends counterpart, the same could be said for Count Dooku as well, Quinlan Vos is reduced to a generic surfer dude with a lightsaber, Anakin doesn't even remotely resemble how he is in the films, every Jedi that looks like they could have an interesting storyline end up dying anyway, and the symbolism is so utterly ham-fisted and predictable that I honestly wonder how anyone could think that Dave Filoni is a good writer. He isn't. He's probably one of the most overrated writers/directors in sci-fi/fantasy since Whedon. There's plenty of other things I'd mention (like the pointlessness of Ahsoka Tano as a character and especially as Anakin's apprentice) but this is already a really long post as it is.
So, I'd recommend this comic series without hesitation. Buy it.
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
Fantastic!
I feel the same, to a degree. I think one of the biggest issues plaguing the prequels was Jar Jar Binks, who tarnished any semblance of depth or artistic integrity in those films. It's hard to appreciate an epic battle sequence (Battle of Naboo) when you have Jar Jar Binks essentially acting out his own version of Earnest Defeats The Trade Federation.
Just embarrassing.
Other details such as the inherent difficulty in making a film that isn't cringeworthy when the central figure is a child actor (The Phantom Menace) or the 1138 battle droids, who are supposed to be in some capacity an imposing military force, walking around acting like characters from a National Lampoon's military spoof.
That said, and it would seem against popular opinion, I actually quite liked Hayden Christensen though not totally. I felt he pulled off many of the more brooding, dark scenes quite well. I had no problem with the whole cast really, but Hayden Christensen tends to be viewed as the weak link.
I won't respond to every bit of your post (because honestly I'm not as steeped in Star Wars as I used to be, Warhammer 40k fandom will do that to you) but you mentioned the books, especially the Del Rey prints. Are these the ones you mean?
I haven't actually read them yet, I assumed they'd just be novelizations of the original films thus not of much importance, was I wrong?
I feel the same, to a degree. I think one of the biggest issues plaguing the prequels was Jar Jar Binks, who tarnished any semblance of depth or artistic integrity in those films. It's hard to appreciate an epic battle sequence (Battle of Naboo) when you have Jar Jar Binks essentially acting out his own version of Earnest Defeats The Trade Federation.
Just embarrassing.
Other details such as the inherent difficulty in making a film that isn't cringeworthy when the central figure is a child actor (The Phantom Menace) or the 1138 battle droids, who are supposed to be in some capacity an imposing military force, walking around acting like characters from a National Lampoon's military spoof.
That said, and it would seem against popular opinion, I actually quite liked Hayden Christensen though not totally. I felt he pulled off many of the more brooding, dark scenes quite well. I had no problem with the whole cast really, but Hayden Christensen tends to be viewed as the weak link.
I won't respond to every bit of your post (because honestly I'm not as steeped in Star Wars as I used to be, Warhammer 40k fandom will do that to you) but you mentioned the books, especially the Del Rey prints. Are these the ones you mean?
I haven't actually read them yet, I assumed they'd just be novelizations of the original films thus not of much importance, was I wrong?
Thanks!
That's a pretty apt description of his role in that battle.
Yeah, an opinion I've always held in regards to the prequels (even when I was much younger) is that if they focused more on the world and the characters that aren't meant to be a joke, then TPM would have been a much stronger film. There's even a novel by James Luceno called Cloak of Deception which does just that by being a set-up novel for The Phantom Menace.
To be fair, that was somewhat mitigated with the other armor and infantry they added like the droidekas, the super battle droids, the spider droids, the Vulture-class droid starfighter in Revenge of the Sith, and others. With Jake Lloyd...yeah, it probably could have been handled differently.
He was actually really good in any scene involving pure emotion. Pretending like Hayden was the only one that fell victim to the direction of the dialogue has to be deluding themselves. If anything, the two actors that played prominent characters that got out mostly unscathed was Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid.
I didn't just mean the novelizations but the actual Expanded Universe material that covers events that aren't featured in the films. That being said, the OT novelizations do have some "extra stuff". I actually quite prefer the PT novelizations to those because there is just more story to the prequel trilogy that would warrant an entire novel.
I agree about the Legend status of the old canon for sure. I've read alot (ALOT) of Star Wars comics and one thing I really liked about the whole thing has been how alive it feels, stories that (to an extent) are cordinated and places into a continuum. When everything I read can matter in later stories and things really are definite. When they suddenly doesn't matter anymore it kind of takes the air out of it.
The Star Wars comic that I probably like the most is The Thrawn Trilogy, and I think it is for two reasons. First it is a novel-adaption which makes the story very non-comic booky. ALOT of SW-comics suffers from the writers being used to super heroes and general thropes of DC and marvel, which makes alot of the characters, and stories just super heroes in space (the Disney reboot is really plagued by this). The story is well thought out with interesting characters that really fit the Star Wars saga.
The second thing is the art style which also is a big problem for alot of especially modern SW-comics. The super flashy and vibrat colors and gimmicky character portrayals just feels really off. It can work in pre-equals because of the tone of those movies but stories with the classic crew of Luke, Han etc should have this dirty archaic feel to it which the original , which the original trilogy gets from not using computer generated effects. The comic version of Thrawn Trilogy captures this perfectly.
The Star Wars comic that I probably like the most is The Thrawn Trilogy, and I think it is for two reasons. First it is a novel-adaption which makes the story very non-comic booky. ALOT of SW-comics suffers from the writers being used to super heroes and general thropes of DC and marvel, which makes alot of the characters, and stories just super heroes in space (the Disney reboot is really plagued by this). The story is well thought out with interesting characters that really fit the Star Wars saga.
The second thing is the art style which also is a big problem for alot of especially modern SW-comics. The super flashy and vibrat colors and gimmicky character portrayals just feels really off. It can work in pre-equals because of the tone of those movies but stories with the classic crew of Luke, Han etc should have this dirty archaic feel to it which the original , which the original trilogy gets from not using computer generated effects. The comic version of Thrawn Trilogy captures this perfectly.
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
Oh interesting. I'll have to make note of it and pick it up sometime.
Point definitely taken and I considered weighing the stupidity of the 1138 battle droids against the menacing functional prowess of the droidekas, super battle droids, spider droids and so on, but I felt that the 1138 battle droids were treated as characters beyond merely being figures of antagonist violence, they're treated as slapstick comical characters. Strangely might I add.
Precisely what I meant. He is one of those actors that is able to convey reasonable depth with just his facial expressions. It's a shame his experiences in the Star Wars prequel trilogy seems to have soiled him on acting. I think he basically retired...
Honestly, I didn't like Samuel L. Jackson in the films. He's cool, but he's one of those actors that just pretty much plays the same guy over and over, though he toned it down somewhat for the Star Wars films. Could also be that by now I'm tired of seeing him in every second film.
Ah, okay I understand. I don't have any Star Wars graphic novels but I'm definitely interested (especially now, reinvigorated interest via that awesome depiction of General Grievous in comic book form, wow so imposing!) and so where would you recommend to start?
I'd always struggled for how to put into words my problems with the reboot films, this explains it perfectly.
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Absolutely.
I think it also applies The Force Awakens and Rogue One in the sense that they are cut and edited in the same way that a Marvel film might. It doesn't fit at all and it really undercuts the musical score and the characters. As far as comics goes, I think Star Wars writers (from Dark Horse, anyway) understood how to not fall in those habits. With Marvel, not so much. Charles Soule's work has been the only stuff I've enjoyed from the new canon comics along with the Obi-Wan and Anakin series. Not much else.
I genuinely liked the sense of variety and style that artists like Cam Kennedy or Jan Duursema (for example) brought to the comics. With the OT stuff and the New Republic era stuff in Legends, there was an appropriate amount of grit that there isn't in the new canon stuff. It's too glossy.
The Thrawn Trilogy comic adaptation also go really well with Mara Jade's series.
I'd recommend plenty of Luceno's Star Wars novels.
It's quite cringeworthy, I'd agree. Thankfully, that isn't really prevalent in a lot of the Expanded Universe material so you'll be spared of that.
Oh, he certainly didn't retire. Although, he wasn't fortunate enough to get cast in any other good films. The only other good one I could think of was Shattered Glass and he was excellent in that one. Nothing much else though, unfortunately.
"What does the Dark Lord LOOK LIKE?! Does he look LIKE A BITCH?!"
In all seriousness, he was alright in that movie. It's just one of those things you experience in hindsight, I'm afraid.
I'm glad reinvigorated interest for you. General Grievous in Legends is just far better in every conceivable way to how he is in the current continuity.
As for where to start, I'd probably recommend some of the post-Return of the Jedi material. This includes the Thrawn Trilogy (novels or comics, I'd recommend both), Mara Jade: By the Emperor's Hand, the Hand of Thrawn duology (follows up on the Thrawn Trilogy and foreshadows the New Jedi Order series), the Dark Empire comics, the X-Wing Rogue Squadron comics (and the novels), and Crimson Empire (which also foreshadows some stuff from NJO).
Here's some of the covers/artwork:
I'd also recommend plenty of the Old Republic era stuff as well. Primarily the Knights of the Old Republic comics by John Jackson Miller and the Tales of the Jedi comics by Tom Veitch and Kevin J. Anderson.
Those are just my recommendations. However, I'd also recommend taking a look at the Legends timeline if you want to start from the beginning with comics like Dawn of the Jedi.
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CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
lovegd
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H.P. Lovecraft
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H.P. Lovecraft
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Did you feel that I was off-base with anything regarding the television series?
H.P. Lovecraft
Active Member
I personally feel Filoni is a much better writer than you give him credit for, and I loathe Whedon. I loved the Anakin in the series, seems far more like an actual, fun, believable character than the whiny pissboy caricature we got in the prequels. Quinlan Vos was awful in that show, I agree, complete fucked it up with him. Ahsoka isn't pointless though, she gives him a mirror that he wouldn't otherwise have, it reflects his own stability through someone else, while also providing another interesting character. I agree on Grievous as well, though I'll admit, I enjoyed his slapstick interactions with the B-1s a little too much. You're right though, he should've been a far more grim character. But at the same time, him being a more comedic underling provides a contrast to Dooku, who I disagree with you about. He's a little impotent at times, but other than that? Phenomenal villain, I take him seriously just about every moment he's on screen, colossal presence.
I think the reason why I prefer Republic in that regard is due to the fact that they kept a lot of his mannerisms as they developed in the films but actually remembered to show his good traits. With TCW, I just think there's barely any resemblance. That being said, I didn't dislike that portrayal until the Mortis arc. More on that momentarily.
Yeah, many people I've met who liked the series end up realizing that they messed up quite badly regarding his characterization.
I've always thought of Obi-Wan as Anakin's foil. Besides, the Council didn't trust him with the rank of "master" in the films so I doubt they'd put an impressionable young apprentice under his tutelage. If anything, the only time where I can genuinely say Ahsoka "worked" for me was when she was with Plo Koon which kind of opens up the possibility that her being his apprentice would have been a far better idea. Too late for that, though.
There's several other things like her crossing blades with Grievous without somehow getting killed, her easily dispatching Magnaguards, the fact that she is inserted into situations she has no place in because it becomes more and more obvious that she is Filoni's "pet character", etc.
You remember when it said that there were "heroes on both sides" in Episode III's opening crawl? Well, in the Expanded Universe material before TCW, that was actually apparent. They were viewed as heroes by the Separatists because Dooku played the political game while Grievous was the broken soldier who rose from the ashes of a destroyed ship that "the Jedi apparently planted" in order to combat the Republic...to great effect. You see, that's kind of the problem. We see very little of that. The CIS, as a whole, gets so little actual development when it comes to Grievous and Dooku that they end up becoming an extremely generic faction as a result.
Also, a lot of what makes Dooku's impotence infuriating to me is from a new-canon novel called Dark Disciple which was originally meant to be part of the later seasons of TCW (which were cancelled). The crap in that novel somehow manages to do less justice to him than the series did. It's sad.
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H.P. Lovecraft
Active Member
I have nothing against Republic (in fact I have nothing but adulation for it), but I think there's a great deal to be said for Anakin in TCW, the Mortis arc was loopy, but aside from that, an A plus variant of the character. It was even that I ended up that way, I went into the episode very familiar with the character, and was distraught and irked when that was the result. Especially when he was at odds with a character as wickedly awesome as Cad Bane, who even you would have to admit is one of the series' creative triumphs. Obi-Wan is Anakin's foil, but only in certain aspects. You get the father-son, masculine brother-brother, and such, but you don't get an actual parallel of Anakin himself to measure him against. Much less a young, feminine contrast that isn't Padme. As for plausibility, though the council wouldn't make him master, they recognize his abnormal precociousness, and he's pushed further before successfully with the Council, so I wouldn't say it's too far out of bounds. Something like master, well, you saw what that took in the RotS film, now that would be nutty. Her crossing blades with Grievous would be an issue if it weren't for the fact that she nearly got killed and he had running scared for her life, and she only got by on sheer dumb luck. Her not having a problem with Magna Guards, I agree, that was dumb, those fuckers far outclass your average Padawan in lethality. She is overinserted at times, but again, she's a mirror to Anakin and recklessness, so she inserts herself forcefully at times, and it makes sense. There are times where she needs ti simply not be there however, agreed. The CIS was without question overly one dimensional, but you seem to forget that peace was almost reached a number of episodes, but it was always thwarted. It's particularly apparent when Padme goes to see her CIS senator pal, she's an authentically good person, and so plenty others in the CIS senate, but it's Dooku, who I personally believe works better as pure evil, who has her killed, and hence ruins the peace process. Grievous is good in TCW, but he is far too clowny and slapstick-ish to be even a great one-sided villain.
So now I've read all the new Marvel Star Wars and my ranking:
Totally unreadable garbage:
Poe Dameron - Wth is wrong with this shit, giant eggs with weird monsters, C3PO as some super spy network guy is so off putting. This drags on without the characters developing at all.
Princess Leia - How much out of character is it possible to write a character? Why is Leia always depitcted as some super fighter-pilot going on rogue missions (Brian Woods Star Wars, I'm looking at you)? This feels so off on lots of levels. Sobby emo Leia going off on some separatist-feminist mission to perserv her race. BLM would be proud.
Darth Maul - One dimensional much? And those sarlacc-inspired monsters in the beginning, give me a break...
Below avreage:
Lando - Guess it could have been ok if it was not for the obvious superheroes in disguise thrown in, like the cat guys and the girl in flying super suit. Blablabla he gambles we got it.
Chewbacca - Not sure what to say about this more than that it felt totally uninteresting and unrelevant. Some side mission without any meaning. And Chewbacca looking like a retard crashing several ships and going around like a mad ape felt really off putting.
Obi-Wan and Anakin - Kind of liked the art, quite flashy but how is this Star Wars? I read a steam punk story that half way through turned into Battletech. WTF has big Japanese style mechas with projectile weapons (!!! X( ) to do with Star Wars?
Average:
Star Wars - this series is the longest and hardest to review because it varies quite abit, but it is ok except for the recurring theme of out of character, lazy story and lore misses that feels really off putting.
Darth Vader - Tbh I can 't exactly say which ones are the Star Wars series and which ones are the Darth Vader, but what I can say about this one is that Darth Vader is NOT Batman no matter how much marvel wishes it. STOP with the superhero poses and wind blowing capes, it is embarassing. Aphra makes most of this book for me.
Kanan - Not so sure about this one, could be below average too. Not familiar with the characters. Sometimes it was ok sometimes not. Few of the characters felt beliveable. Especially the smugglers/gangsters and the Clone Troopers were tendious.
Doctor Aphra - I had high hopes for this one because I like her and all, and it's ok, but her dad thing feels really thin. Not buying it at all.
Shattered Empire - Liked the setting and the art but not so much more. Thin story with forced characters and if I read someone saying "buckethead" again i'll fucking cry.
Actually good:
Han Solo - The only series I really liked. Felt on character, interesting concept with a race and I enjoyed the other racers. This is how it should be done!
Not sure if I missed any series?
Totally unreadable garbage:
Poe Dameron - Wth is wrong with this shit, giant eggs with weird monsters, C3PO as some super spy network guy is so off putting. This drags on without the characters developing at all.
Princess Leia - How much out of character is it possible to write a character? Why is Leia always depitcted as some super fighter-pilot going on rogue missions (Brian Woods Star Wars, I'm looking at you)? This feels so off on lots of levels. Sobby emo Leia going off on some separatist-feminist mission to perserv her race. BLM would be proud.
Darth Maul - One dimensional much? And those sarlacc-inspired monsters in the beginning, give me a break...
Below avreage:
Lando - Guess it could have been ok if it was not for the obvious superheroes in disguise thrown in, like the cat guys and the girl in flying super suit. Blablabla he gambles we got it.
Chewbacca - Not sure what to say about this more than that it felt totally uninteresting and unrelevant. Some side mission without any meaning. And Chewbacca looking like a retard crashing several ships and going around like a mad ape felt really off putting.
Obi-Wan and Anakin - Kind of liked the art, quite flashy but how is this Star Wars? I read a steam punk story that half way through turned into Battletech. WTF has big Japanese style mechas with projectile weapons (!!! X( ) to do with Star Wars?
Average:
Star Wars - this series is the longest and hardest to review because it varies quite abit, but it is ok except for the recurring theme of out of character, lazy story and lore misses that feels really off putting.
Darth Vader - Tbh I can 't exactly say which ones are the Star Wars series and which ones are the Darth Vader, but what I can say about this one is that Darth Vader is NOT Batman no matter how much marvel wishes it. STOP with the superhero poses and wind blowing capes, it is embarassing. Aphra makes most of this book for me.
Kanan - Not so sure about this one, could be below average too. Not familiar with the characters. Sometimes it was ok sometimes not. Few of the characters felt beliveable. Especially the smugglers/gangsters and the Clone Troopers were tendious.
Doctor Aphra - I had high hopes for this one because I like her and all, and it's ok, but her dad thing feels really thin. Not buying it at all.
Shattered Empire - Liked the setting and the art but not so much more. Thin story with forced characters and if I read someone saying "buckethead" again i'll fucking cry.
Actually good:
Han Solo - The only series I really liked. Felt on character, interesting concept with a race and I enjoyed the other racers. This is how it should be done!
Not sure if I missed any series?
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Ha yeah just imagine it together with the Star Wars and Darth Vader reviews. Nothing new except I had to read them in the right order.
So what spawned this is that I've had "Star Wars ALL" on my pull list for the last ten years (so I get every single issue released) but I've actually until know never really read the new marvel books. So I decided to plow through them all this far. Not sure if it is/was worth it.
So what spawned this is that I've had "Star Wars ALL" on my pull list for the last ten years (so I get every single issue released) but I've actually until know never really read the new marvel books. So I decided to plow through them all this far.
Not sure if it is/was worth it.
TageRyche
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- May 13, 2007
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I wasn't crazy about the Princess Leia miniseries, and I've skipped all the solo character minis except the Han Solo series which I have but haven't read yet.
I have read some of the Star Wars and Darth Vader series and I've enjoyed what I've read, but I'm way behind on both of them.
I have read some of the Star Wars and Darth Vader series and I've enjoyed what I've read, but I'm way behind on both of them.
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