Controversial opinions on metal

[CiG]

those are not subgenre tags. Those are just descriptions people used. Are Venom and Motorhead speed metal bands when that term was used to describe their sound by numerous people back in the days?

going to have to clear one thing up, i personally do consider Venom and Motorhead to be speed metal bands ... just pointing out that they're technically not considered to be speed metal as far as the definition of the subgenre goes. So i guess i can see why Tera would refer to bands like Shai Huluid, Converge etc as metalcore. My bad for pressuring you so hard twinkster.

A lot of subgenres form from descriptors. Hard rock for example. First usage of heavy metal was "heavy metal rock" as we all know. Not really sure how to respond to that, sure doom metal is a descriptor but it's also a subgenre.

you said it was used in late 90's. no one used metalcore in the 90's. Some dude referred to their sound as metalcore in the 2000's, that doesnt equate to them "inventing" the subgenre(like you said), all that means is that they invented the term.

I said he and his friends used it in the late 90's, and then it became a popularized term in the 00's because of music journalists and yes because Shai Hulud used the term on their 2003 CD. I didn't mean it was used in the late 90's in the sense that thousands of people in scenes around the world were using it.

I also said he "practically invented" the subgenre and by that I meant that he was the first to identify specific elements that associate all these different bands and give it a name. Obviously all he did was shorten "metallic hardcore" to metalcore but the former is now an antiquated term and the latter prevails. I didn't mean that his band created the sound.

Tera did, im responding to both of you

again, that was not directly in response to you, just saying you guys can use it to describe those bands y'all mentioned.

Don't lump me in with someone trying to call The Cro-Mags "proto-metalcore" is all I'm saying lmfao.

And i find the whole "Proto" anything stuff to be nonsense. People need to stop using it as if they're some kind of subgnere of their own because we can literally start applying to dozens of bands from different sounds when it comes to whatever genre it is people are trying to apply said "proto-whatever" label to. its pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

It's really just a way to draw a link between a band that has similarities to a subgenre that developed after them. It can be a bit tenuous or even pretentious at times but it has its practical uses.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

A lot of subgenres form from descriptors.

i disagree with this. "Heavy" was used to describe a lot of other bands that later on when the genre was "officially" formed/recognized were not considered heavy metal. And Doom was used for bands that were influenced by an already solidified sound. Black Sabbath were a heavy metal band, the bands that were later largely inspired by them(or certain songs from them) were referred to as doom which is how that name got tacked on to Sabbath as well. Literally the same thing were talking about here as far as metalcore goes.

I said he and his friends used it in the late 90's, and then it became a popularized term in the 00's because of music journalists and yes because Shai Hulud used the term on their 2003 CD. I didn't mean it was used in the late 90's in the sense that thousands of people in scenes around the world were using it.

Ive never hear of anyone referring to heavy hardcore as metalcore in the 90's, including that band.

I also said he "practically invented" the subgenre and by that I meant that he was the first to identify specific elements that associate all these different bands and give it a name. Obviously all he did was shorten "metallic hardcore" to metalcore but the former is now an antiquated term and the latter prevails. I didn't mean that his band created the sound.

he created a term, one that would later be used to describe the actual subgnere of metalcore. That in no way equates to him inventing a subgenre dude.

Don't lump me in with someone trying to call The Cro-Mags "proto-metalcore" is all I'm saying lmfao.

try rereading what i say, i didnt "lump you in" with anybody. Im saying that proto-metalcore can be used to describe the bands that tera AND YOU are incorrectly referring to as metalcore just beacsue "hey they were hardcore and they played metal". So yeah, that response was to both of you.

It's really just a way to draw a link between a band that has similarities to a subgenre that developed after them. It can be a bit tenuous or even pretentious at times but it has its practical uses.

i dont think it does at all. its another term that seems to be tossed around by a lot of dudes who probably didnt even listen to metal growing up. You can literally tie strings to numerous bands form numerous genres if you want to go that route. Are Slayer proto death metal? Its meaningless. They even get applied to numerous bands that clearly were a part of said genre(and in some cases pioneers like Deep Purple) but these new school hipsters think they can use the "proto" nonsense to redefine genres/subgenres. Thats just not how it works

Not to sound like im sitting on a high-horse or anything, but this feels like im having an argument with dudes who started listening to metal in the 2000's via metalcore or something

 

[CiG]

i disagree with this. "Heavy" was used to describe a lot of other bands that later on when the genre was "officially" formed/recognized were not considered heavy metal. And Doom was used for bands that were influenced by an already solidified sound. Black Sabbath were a heavy metal band, the bands that were later largely inspired by them(or certain songs from them) were referred to as doom which is how that name got tacked on to Sabbath as well. Literally the same thing were talking about here as far as metalcore goes.

I actually tend to disagree with Black Sabbath being called a doom metal band so I can sympathize here, but setting Sabbath aside, it happened with bands like Pentagram and Pagan Altar and very few would dispute that they're doom bands.

Ive never hear of anyone referring to heavy hardcore as metalcore in the 90's, including that band.

I'm just going by what Fox has himself said in interviews.

he created a term, one that would later be used to describe the actual subgnere of metalcore. That in no way equates to him inventing a subgenre dude.

He didn't create that term to describe mallcore though, that's my overall point. He created it to describe bands like Shai Hulud. Other faggots took it later and used it to describe something else.

try rereading what i say, i didnt "lump you in" with anybody. Im saying that proto-metalcore can be used to describe the bands that tera AND YOU are incorrectly referring to as metalcore just beacsue "hey they were hardcore and they played metal". So yeah, that response was to both of you.

Anything can be, the point is I'm not.

i dont think it does at all. its another term that seems to be tossed around by a lot of dudes who probably didnt even listen to metal growing up. You can literally tie strings to numerous bands form numerous genres if you want to go that route. Are Slayer proto death metal? Its meaningless. They even get applied to numerous bands that clearly were a part of said genre(and in some cases pioneers like Deep Purple) but these new school hipsters think they can use the "proto" nonsense to redefine genres/subgenres. Thats just not how it works

The popularity of using "proto" mostly comes from proto-punk and that's where I tend to see its legitimacy as a tool, I've never been too invested in the idea of "proto-death" or "proto-thrash" etc etc because as you say it's basically meaningless. Proto-punk is useful for following the through-line from garage rock in the late 50's to the 60's into '77 punk rock.

Proto-metal might have some uses too, but most bands that get that label tend to have very specific subgenres anyway, like heavy psych for example. And like I said, it can definitely be tenuous and pretentious at times, it opens the door for a lot of wacky purely subjective shit.

Not to sound like im sitting on a high-horse or anything, but this feels like im having an argument with dudes who started listening to metal in the 2000's via metalcore or something

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I actually tend to disagree with Black Sabbath being called a doom metal band so I can sympathize here, but setting Sabbath aside, it happened with bands like Pentagram and Pagan Altar and very few would dispute that they're doom bands.

not sure what or who you're responding to since i said doom was based on bands that played a style of music that already had a solidified sound. And tbh i have no problem with Black Sabbath being labeled DOOM metal because that is where the sound came form. None of the bands YOU AND TERA(yea im lumping you two together) mentioned are where the metalcore subgenre or the sound came from. How do you not see the difference here?

I'm just going by what Fox has himself said in interviews.

are any of those interviews form the 90's?? No, right? got it.

He didn't create that term to describe mallcore though, that's my overall point. He created it to describe bands like Shai Hulud.

doesnt matter one bit, because what you're referring to as mallcore IS the genre of metalcore.

Anything can be, the point is I'm not.

Youre not what? Again, i was responding to you and tera, since you guys both clearly do not know what the subgenre of metalcore is. You can for some reason keep getting offended by this but that's not my problem

View attachment 23329

Look instead of continuing to argue about this shit im just going to make this clear ....

influential bands =/= proto this or proto that bands

creating a term =/= creating a genre/subgenre of music

heavy hardcore =/= metalcore

cro mags, dri, agnostic front etc =/= "proto-metalcore"

anyone who disagrees is a fucking idiot

 

[CiG]

You think I'm offended over a typical autistic genre debate?

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

You think I'm offended over a typical autistic genre debate?

anyone can be, but the point is we are not

 

[CiG]

anyone can be, but the point is we are not

Youre not what?

Calling anything "proto-metalcore."

not sure what or who you're responding to since i said doom was based on bands that played a style of music that already had a solidified sound. And tbh i have no problem with Black Sabbath being labeled DOOM metal because that is where the sound came form. None of the bands YOU AND TERA(yea im lumping you two together) mentioned are where the metalcore subgenre or the sound came from. How do you not see the difference here?

So what subgenre is Shai Hulud? Let's try and cut through all the minutiae here. If what I refer to as mallcore is what metalcore is and all that it is, why are there albums released alongside mallcore albums (as in, not old albums retroactively labeled as metalcore) and both styles are called metalcore?

are any of those interviews form the 90's?? No, right? got it.

Not that I know of, and fair enough because we all know musicians lie their asses off about shit like this (eg Fenriz being "a thrasher since '84"). At the same time however all I have to go on is hearsay.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Calling anything "proto-metalcore."

dude, im telling you that proto-metalcore(the term tera used) can be used to describe the bands that you BOTH are incorrectly referring to as metalcore.

So what subgenre is Shai Hulud? Let's try and cut through all the minutiae here. If what I refer to as mallcore is what metalcore is and all that it is, why are there albums released alongside mallcore albums (as in, not old albums retroactively labeled as metalcore) and both styles are called metalcore?

They're heavy hardcore band/a true metallic hardcore band ... as i stated numerous times. They incorrectly get labelled as metalcore by some people, the same way say Pantera, Lamb of God and a bunch of other groove metal bands sometimes get incorrectly labeled as thrash metal or how some death metal bands get labelled as technical death metal, etc. These subgenres have solidified sounds that you cant just lump other bands into. And Mallcore is just a term people like me and you use to trash metalcore and other bands, so lets not sit here and pretend that "mallcore" is some legit genre that you're using to describe any bands let alone calling it a "style of music".

Not that I know of, and fair enough because we all know musicians lie their asses off about shit like this (eg Fenriz being "a thrasher since '84"). At the same time however all I have to go on is hearsay.

yeah, and even if he did my whole point is that coming up with a term in no way equates to "inventing a sub genre".

can we fucking drop this now or do you want to argue for another few pages about one of the shitstains on metal that is metalcore?

 

[CiG]

They're heavy hardcore band/a true metallic hardcore band ... as i stated numerous times. They incorrectly get labelled as metalcore by some people, the same way say Pantera, Lamb of God and a bunch of other groove metal bands sometimes get incorrectly labeled as thrash metal or how some death metal bands get labelled as technical death metal, etc. These subgenres have solidified sounds that you cant just lump other bands into.

So Shai Hulud incorrectly label themselves?

And Mallcore is just a term people like me and you use to trash metalcore and other bands, so lets not sit here and pretend that "mallcore" is some legit genre that you're using to describe any bands let alone calling it a "style of music".

Obviously I don't think mallcore is a legit genre.

can we fucking drop this now or do you want to argue for another few pages about one of the shitstains on metal that is metalcore?

Happily, we'll never agree on this.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

So Shai Hulud incorrectly label themselves?

they are using a term to describe their sound(which again has nothing to do with a subgenre name hence death metal, black metal etc ... those are not sound descriptors), which is metallic hardcore as you stated. If they say they are "metalcore" which they DID NOT in the 90's ... then that would be incorrect 100% regardless of who says it. Lamb of God can call themselves a modern thrash band, doesnt make them one.

Obviously I don't think mallcore is a legit genre.

Mallcore means nothing, metalcore is the genre that belongs to those lames you keep calling mallcore as if its some legit title.

 

[CiG]

The ultimate controversy:

Slipknot > Slayer.

...Don't worry. I respect Slayer for their earlier material, but it just isn't my kind of metal at all.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

 

[Allfader]

influential bands =/= proto this or proto that bands

It depends on the level and kind of influence. No definite answer there.

For example, what do you think about Celtic Frost/Hellhammer regarding death and black metal? Both bands definitely provided strong elements that became key songwriting/production staples of what came after them. So, if they aren't considering full death/black metal bands they at least deserve the proto- prefix.

Now, Mercyful Fate and Morbid Angel have been quoted as vast influences by most of black metal musicians, but I don't think anyone would call them black metal.

creating a term =/= creating a genre/subgenre of music

Again, it depends. Meshuggah coined the term djent, which is a more or less decent umbrella term for their copycats, based on their specific riffing/rhythm qualities. It became a sort of style, based on particular musical elements that can be traced back to their originators.

Now, I don't consider Venom to be a black metal band. They might have brought up the term, but they never made black metal. Even Hellhammer was closer to the black metal sound than what I personally consider to be established from Bathory's debut onwards.

heavy hardcore =/= metalcore

Sure. Heavy hardcore would be more like crust, not metalcore.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

again, coming up with a term does NOT equate to the creation of a music genre/subgenre. Don't know why that part of what i said would confuse you.

 

[Sedition and Pockets]

In what realm of the multiverse is fucking Venom not black metal?

 

[crimsonfloyd]

In what realm of the multiverse is fucking Venom not black metal?

Reality. They're a heavy/speed metal band who named a song and an album Black Metal, but other than the lyrics, they possess none of the characteristics of black metal. And if you're going off lyrics, then you logically have to count Slayer, Black Sabbath and 10,000 other non-black metal bands who sing about evil shit as black metal.

 

[Krow]

But no first wave black metal is black metal any way so it’s always been dumb.

how is Greek black metal even black metal? Those bands sound closer to extreme metal spawns of Sabbath than much else.

 

[no country for old wainds]

i don’t agree that no first wave BM is black metal, but yeah venom will always be nwobhm to me. the return is when the first wave started to be recognisably BM.

 

[Sirjack]

I don't know. Power metal offers a plethora of very horrible bands.



If we're suggesting black metal for death metal fans, I'll throw out Aeternus's Beyond the Wandering Moon.

l didn't even remember this @Einherjar86 but you rec'd Aeternus - Beyond The Wandering Moon to me back when, and l gotta say, it's perhaps the only BM album l ever felt a slight affinity for apart from Meads of Asphodel and The Murder of Jesus the Jew. Still need to source this on vinyl. cheers ears

 

[no country for old wainds]

have you heard the follow-up? pretty great also