Controversial opinions on metal

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Maroon

This.

 

[Belligerent]

I'd rank Cradle Of Filth higher than Dimmu Borgir. Enthrone Darkness Triumphant is the only Dimmu Borgir album which is worthwhile

:zombie::zombie::zombie: You can't be serious, COF are garbage and shouldn't even be compared to Dimmu anyhow.

What I meant is that Nile are so terrible, it's humorous.
Guts and gore are always good though.

I'd have to agree. The only Nile track i like/still listen to is "Even The Gods Must Die". If they wrote more material like that i might be a fan.

 

[Einherjar86]

:zombie::zombie::zombie: You can't be serious, COF are garbage and shouldn't even be compared to Dimmu anyhow.

I've been waiting for someone to fucking say this. I don't even get the comparison, really. They both implement symphonic elements, but where Dimmu is still black metal, Cradle is just some weird metal hybrid of I don't really know what. And Dani's voice is like nails on a chalkboard. The only Cradle song I can stand is The Byronic Man, and that's because it's about Lord Byron Other than that, old Dimmu (both bands' newer material isn't good) slays any Cradle.

Good call Chris.

 

[CF87]

Cradle of Filth are much better than Dimmu Borgir.

 

[Gold]

impending doom aren't good in any way

 

[Belligerent]

Cradle is just some weird metal hybrid of I don't really know what. And Dani's voice is like nails on a chalkboard.

Spot on there, basically my point that COF ARE NOT black metal and they shouldn't be compared. COF fans sicken me almost as much as that squid Dani Filth does. (no offense Vossyrus)

 

[seedofvengeance]

impending doom aren't good in any way

Except they are.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Nah, they're kinda just there...and their lyrics are waaaay too preachy. Even War of Ages pulls off GAWD RULEZ lyrics better.

 

[seedofvengeance]

I enjoy their album, and could really not care less about their lyrics. Knowing they're there is annoying, but I like their sound. The song Condemned is pretty great song by them.

 

[Gold]

they have the most annoying snare sound ever

 

[seedofvengeance]

That's actually one of the things I like about the band. I guess I just have weird taste.

 

[cookiecutter]

Loud snares rule, although I don't know what Impending Doom sound like.

 

[seedofvengeance]

You don't like deathcore, so I doubt you would like them. They're like really heavy Christian deathcore.... which is an odd combination.

 

[ShredHeadJHJ]

Nile are awesome.
Cradle of Filth are pretty rad.

Neither band is downright amazing, but they're both pretty damn good at what they do.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

I'd rank Cradle Of Filth higher than Dimmu Borgir. Enthrone Darkness Triumphant is the only Dimmu Borgir album which is worthwhile, while Cradle Of Filth released several quality albums in the mid nineties. Dani is still the fagmaster though.

i disagree that EDT is the only worthwhile Dimmu... overrall i'd say that Dimmu is the better band. the early COF is good but they have really sucked since midian.

 

[Blind Guardian]

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is satirical and comedic about Nile?

"Papyrus Containing the Spell to Preserve Its Possessor Against Attacks From He Who Is in the Water"

Prime example there. Another one is "Chapter Of Obeisance Before Giving Breath To The Inert One In The Presence Of The Crescent Shaped Horns".
I wanna point out that i don't have anything against Nile, but that slowlywerot guy seems to take death metal more serious than it is, what it comes down to is entertainment and not a spiritual search for nirvana. Metal has always been silly, the redeeming factor is that it's damn fun too if you can let go of being so serious.

 

[challenge_everything]

You're sort of missing the point that the "elitists" are making, which is not that the classics of the 80s (by bands like Discharge, Bad Brains, the Misfits, Minor Threat, Amebix, Crass, Black Flag etc.) don't measure up, but that, strictly speaking, these aren't punk albums. Punk rock as such was largely a phenomenon of the 70s. By the 80s, you're mostly talking about hardcore and crust. The situation parallels that of heavy metal. I think the overwhelming majority of fans would say that very few truly classic heavy metal albums were released after 82/83 or so, not because heavy metal released after that period is inherently 'bad' or 'unoriginal,' but because those years marked a turning point, and most of the metal albums released since that time have been in other subgenres.

Stylistically, there's not much difference between punk and hardcore and in any event those bands you named were not doing anything that had not been done by 70s UK 'punk' bands (ie Angelic Upstarts, Anti-Nowhere League, Sham 69), or, at least, any advances in style, technique and composition were no greater than those between, say, Burzum and Negura Bunget. They simply executed it better. So assuming you regard those bands you mentioned as having artistic merit, you must recognise that 'execution' is more important than 'originality'.

I really don't see this, at least not on a macro-scale. What I see is albums that have more elements in their makeup, but are poorly constructed by artists who are more interested in the novelty of their music's constituent parts than in the function of the final product. That's not really an improvement, in my mind, so much as a loss of focus.

Wasn't it you who said there was at least some value in a poorly executed, but genuine, attempt at originality?

Perfect case in point. I could not disagree more completely with that assessment. When I hear Si Monumentum..., it strikes me as a classic case of Old Spice Double Impact Syndrome. The band seems intent on reminding you at every turn that this is experimental stuff (although, as it turns out, not really that experimental) by jamming elements together for maximum sonic contrast. It's soft. NOW IT'S LOUD! CACOPHONY! ambience. All very melodramatic, but also painfully predictable and basically incoherent as anything beyond an aesthetic of contrast. We get it, it's two things!

I think you have utterly missed the point of SMRC. Are we even listening to the same album? Where is this cacaphony? I see no attempt to seek "maximum sonic contrast". On the contrary, this album is relatively consistent in its aesthetic and a cohesive piece of work. Unless you're referring to the "Prayers" but these do not create, or seek to create, a loud/soft contrast. They use almost the same style of riff, and have a similar atmosphere, as the other songs but played much slower tempo. By the way, I'm not the biggest fan of DSO either but I use it simply for its notoriety.

Taking the argument to the extreme example, if I invent a musical genre, something thoroughly original in both structure and aesthetic, but execute it poorly, does it automatically make a subsequent artist who flawlessly executed that style inferior to me? I don't think so.

I notice this was the only part of my last post you didn't respond to. Your argument seems to be somewhat of a cop-out. You say that the newer bands lack originality to make them worthwhile, but every time someone points out an original album, you say "oh, but it's poorly executed".

On the first point, as I've already said, I think you overstate the importance of originality, and for that matter, ascribe a greater degree of originality to the 2nd wave bands than they deserve, given what came before them. I'm not going to go and listen to derivative rubbish like 1349 when I can listen to Darkthrone, but likewise if there is a superior effort at that style, I'm not going to reject it off-hand.

On the second point, there's not much I can do if you can't recognise the compositional qualities of modern black metal, short of giving a review of each album. But I don't think the classics of the 2nd wave are any more immune than modern albums to criticisms of their composition. To choose one album often regarded as one of the best, look at Burzum's Hvis Lyset Tar Oss. Incredible first song, perhaps one of the best BM songs ever, utterly haunting. The more aggressive title track is good, but not something particularly new. Inn I Slottet Fra Drommen has an irritating two chord riff which goes on forever and finally we come to Tomhet, beautiful, well-composed, yet dull and overly long. It's dangerous to put things on a pedestal.

 

[TheInsane]

On the Dimmu vs Cradle debate I rank the best stuff by Cradle as alot better than the best by Dimmu. However neither band has interested me in ages.

And I think Nile is one of the more brutal death metal bands that can keep my interest up. One of the best bands in that genre.

 

[challenge_everything]

Bad Brains, Black Flag, Crass, The Misfits and Discharge formed in 1977. Social Distortion and Amebix both formed in 1978. These bands are exact contemporaries of the bands you listed, not successors (granted, Minor Threat didn't form until 1980 - but then again, neither did Anti-Nowhere League). Punk rock as such had pretty much shot its creative wad at that point, so it's hardly surprising that the handful of old-style punk bands left behind sort of fade into the background in comparison to the emerging hardcore and crust bands who appeared at the same time. You really ought to brush up on your history before you lecture others about it, man.

Don't patronise me about history. Pretty much all the relevant UK punk bands had broken up or stopped being creative by the late 1970s. The vast majority of the decent 'hardcore' albums were released in the 1980s. Two distinct periods. The bands you named had heard stuff from the UK scene, had time to digest The Ramones and New York Dolls, and were essentially derivative in style. We're not talking about much of a gap between the two eras, but then again it didn't take long to digest a punk album, or compose one of your own.

Hvis lyset tar oss is as close to flawless as any metal album yet recorded, but it loses a whole lot of its impact when kids try to play it in mp3 format over their computers or off an iPod. The complexity of the tracks - especially 2-4 - is largely in the layering of sound, and that simply gets missed with lossy audio or inadequate speakers.

My advice: get a real stereo or clean out your ears.

Again so quick to patronise. If I refuse to recognise an album as flawless, it must be because I'm a teenager listening to mp3s on an ipod. Given how many 100% reviews you've dished out on MA, I would say it's you who needs to develop a more critical ear when it comes to those oh-so-hallowed albums. I doubt I could name any album worthy of 100%, at least not in metal.

 

[Dak]

Nah, they're kinda just there...and their lyrics are waaaay too preachy. Even War of Ages pulls off GAWD RULEZ lyrics better.

War of Ages is kind of a one trick pony though. With the exception of Stand Your Ground on the first album the rest of their songs just sound like one run-on track.

Becoming the Archetype is probably the best metal band (that I have heard anyway) with a Christian label.