Country of shit, politics of whit, corruption etc. - Serious thread

[cookiecutter]

Very true. Good post.

I feel that America has one of the best political systems. Despite everything wrong with this country, you really can't complain about the economic freedom it provides. And not all of these lobbyists represent "conservative" factions. Popular opinion is a major player in politics, and many "liberal" lobbyists play off of this fact (please, let's not get into a debate over liberal and conservative; the truth is that both are just as corrupt). Emotional appeal is a huge factor in the media. The health care system in America has seen its fair share of burdens due to the relentless lobbying of certain liberal human rights groups that manipulate and contort the facts to serve their own ends. There are documented cases in which lobbyists coerced courts into passing judgments that ultimately proved to have a negative impact on this country's health care system.

I'm not condemning such lobbyist groups or saying I'm against them. I only want to show that there is no "good guy" in politics. Both sides are equally manipulative and corrupt.

You know my feelings on the issues and I agree with you 100%. Politicians shouls decide whether to implement liberal or conservative policies based on objective criteria not emotional appeals or how much money was donated to the reelection campaign.

Also Hubster, a quick word: I think you're being a bit unfair to Nec and the rest of the forum. Calling Zeph the only person with a brain on this forum is an insult to everyone, as meaningless as it is coming form you.

I think instead of rejecting the capitalist system for destroying social lives, we should instead try to reform it and address its weaknesses. Because it does have a lot of strengths

 

[Hubster]

I think instead of rejecting the capitalist system for destroying social lives, we should instead try to reform it and address its weaknesses. Because it does have a lot of strengths

But how? (real question)

 

[cookiecutter]

I don't really know, but I think Democratic Socialism is on the right track

 

[skeptik]

One major step that would be necessary in doing that is eliminating the lobbying system and massively overhauling all bureaucratic organizations, but, of course, that's pipe dream. Trust me, Hubster, you're not the only one who is dissatisfied with capitalism and the capitalist system and way of life as a whole.

 

[Einherjar86]

I really wish I had an answer to that, because I'd be the first person to take it up, were it viable.

I've just found, that while being exposed to life in a very different country, that despite the lack of advantages of living in a capitalist society, their apparent lack of seems to promote far better mental health and treatment of their friends, family and community. It seems far more proactive to me I guess. I just feel generally we in the Western world don't spend enough time thinking about the needs of others.

When we arrived back in Sydney, the first thing which hit us was the amount of CONTROL. trust me, if you go to a country which is not Western, and you appreciate their way of life, and then return to your home, you just can't look at home the same way. Your entire perception changes, quite heavily so. Instead of normal billboard everywhere, I saw control: "buy, buy, spend, spend, you NEED this" etc etc. A constant supression of our lives is everywhere around us, and we're so used to it that we don't even realise it half the time. It's only the really adverse things which we seem to react to, but the more subtle ones are ones we seem to ignore - yet it's the subtleties which are the actual "dangers" from a control perspective.

I wish I had an idea to an alternative to capitalism. I do know of people, friends of ex's and such, who've travelled, seen what I've described for example, and then left Western society, moved to another country to live a much simpler life, and they feel really fulfilled by that. Hardly a new concept either, Westerners have done it for decades.

Do I think I can do that? Hmm... I'm not so sure. Still trying to sort that one out. I can definitely see that capitalism is not quite what it seems, and in many ways, it's killing who we are.

I can see how capitalism might seem oppressive to someone who has-how shall I say it-fulfilled their niche. I don't mean this in a negative way. I merely mean people who don't plan on advancing any further in their career opportunities. However, capitalism is the best and most hopeful system for someone who is trying to start their own business. Originally, this was believed to be the American dream. Someone spends time working lower level jobs, saving money, learning the ropes. Then, eventually, you go and start your own business, open a store, a factory, something... and capitalism is the system of economy that's most conducive to that. Obviously not all endeavors are successful; but that's part of the risk you take. You need to sacrifice a little to gain anything.

I'd also just like to add that I can't fucking stand it when musicians or actors rail on capitalism and call it "fascist" or "corrupt." It was America's capitalist system that allowed them to make all that money in the first place. I wish they would all just shut their fucking mouths, because I don't see any of them not living in a house that's bigger than necessary, or not driving an obscenely expensive car that works just as well as a Nissan Altima. Granted, there are some who live quaintly; but they're usually the ones who aren't bitching and moaning all over the tabloids and television screens. And the rest can drive their Bentleys, I don't care; but shut the fuck up.

 

[Hubster]

One major step that would be necessary in doing that is eliminating the lobbying system and massively overhauling all bureaucratic organizations, but, of course, that's pipe dream. Trust me, Hubster, you're not the only one who is dissatisfied with capitalism and the capitalist system and way of life as a whole.

^ ... that's what I was trying to highlight with what I mentioned about Indonesia. I guess I find that capitalism's effect psychologically is what bugs me the most. In Australia it's becoming quite a bad thing I find, especially in Sydney. People here never used to be so cold, narcissistic and consumerist, but now it's so out of control. It's like capitalism has mutated into some form of super-gluttony.

 

[Hubster]

I can see how capitalism might seem oppressive to someone who has-how shall I say it-fulfilled their niche. I don't mean this in a negative way. I merely mean people who don't plan on advancing any further in their career opportunities. However, capitalism is the best and most hopeful system for someone who is trying to start their own business. Originally, this was believed to be the American dream. Someone spends time working lower level jobs, saving money, learning the ropes. Then, eventually, you go and start your own business, open a store, a factory, something... and capitalism is the system of economy that's most conducive to that. Obviously not all endeavors are successful; but that's part of the risk you take. You need to sacrifice a little to gain anything.

I'd also just like to add that I can't fucking stand it when musicians or actors rail on capitalism and call it "fascist" or "corrupt." It was America's capitalist system that allowed them to make all that money in the first place. I wish they would all just shut their fucking mouths, because I don't see any of them not living in a house that's bigger than necessary, or not driving an obscenely expensive car that works just as well as a Nissan Altima. Granted, there are some who live quaintly; but they're usually the ones who aren't bitching and moaning all over the tabloids and television screens. And the rest can drive their Bentleys, I don't care; but shut the fuck up.

I guess I've reached the point where career and success seem rather primitive, and that's considering my career is going well, and quite possibly about to go to a height I could only dream of... yet simutaneously I feel despite this success, it truly amounts to very little on the greater scope of things.

I know I'm likely the only person of my age group in this thread, but you do reach a point in your career where you think "surely there must be more to it than this", and well, there's not... I know quite a number of people in their late 20s and early 30s, even 40s, who feel this way. Mind you, they're a minority. The rest ar very swept by the dreams of their large houses, flash cars and the like...

 

[skeptik]

It's almost ironic in a sense that capitalism was supposed to make life easier with all of the latest commodities and luxuries and such, and yet the reality is that people are working harder than ever and having less downtime to enjoy their precious material goods than ever, and yet non-capitalist societies (ones that are not run by fascists) tend to have a lot more downtime and, from what I understand, seem to enjoy life more fully and are less bitter and cynical. Of course there are a myriad of factors at work here, but I definitely think that there's at least a relevant correlation, at least as far as the modern, "American" practice of the capitalist system is applied throughout the world.

 

[cookiecutter]

I can see how capitalism might seem oppressive to someone who has-how shall I say it-fulfilled their niche. I don't mean this in a negative way. I merely mean people who don't plan on advancing any further in their career opportunities. However, capitalism is the best and most hopeful system for someone who is trying to start their own business. Originally, this was believed to be the American dream. Someone spends time working lower level jobs, saving money, learning the ropes. Then, eventually, you go and start your own business, open a store, a factory, something... and capitalism is the system of economy that's most conducive to that. Obviously not all endeavors are successful; but that's part of the risk you take. You need to sacrifice a little to gain anything.

This is how capitalism ideally works, but that's not how it always works. Some people who work very hard can't get anywhere, and some people who do not work hard get a lot of money. Also the the quest for profit which drives innovation and class advancement also drives for cost cutting of important things and environmental destruction. These things need to be controlled. I'm sure there is a good mixed economic idea out there somewhere, we just need the political will to implement it.

 

[Hubster]

It's almost ironic in a sense that capitalism was supposed to make life easier with all of the latest commodities and luxuries and such, and yet the reality is that people are working harder than ever and having less downtime to enjoy their precious material goods than ever, and yet non-capitalist societies (ones that are not run by fascists) tend to have a lot more downtime and, from what I understand, seem to enjoy life more fully and are less bitter and cynical. Of course there are a myriad of factors at work here, but I definitely think that there's at least a relevant correlation, at least as far as the modern, "American" practice of the capitalist system is applied throughout the world.

That's a very true statement. I saw a family of villagers who had NOTHING Nec, barely even a house. Yet you look at their kids laughing and enjoying themselves... god I don't see kids like that in Western society.

 

[Valerie]

That's a very true statement. I saw a family of villagers who had NOTHING Nec, barely even a house. Yet you look at their kids laughing and enjoying themselves... god I don't see kids like that in Western society.

Ignorance is bliss? People who don't know of such material stuff as we do are content to be with what they have. But we all see the commercials and other advertisements and crave everything.

 

[Hubster]

The question is though, do we crave, or fall victim to controlling propaganda?

 

[Einherjar86]

This is how capitalism ideally works, but that's not how it always works. Some people who work very hard can't get anywhere, and some people who do not work hard get a lot of money. Also the the quest for profit which drives innovation and class advancement also drives for cost cutting of important things and environmental destruction. These things need to be controlled. I'm sure there is a good mixed economic idea out there somewhere, we just need the political will to implement it.

Yes, I know. I doubt we'll ever find it though. Or if we do find it, we won't have the political will to implement it, as you said. This will largely be due to lobbyist groups, I feel.

Another problem within this country is the amount of ignorance within our population. The reason that emotional appeal works in advertising and lobbying groups is that the majority of the populace is uneducated in what they're listening to. So they're swayed by emotional appeals and believe that they're finding enlightenment, when in truth they're only being manipulated. I admit that I fall victim to this too. People need to think critically rather than agree passively.

 

[Belligerent]

when I think of shit politics I think of Illinois Gov Blagojevich, and Chicago Mayer Daley. Holy shit these guys are ruining peoples lives and nothing is being done about it.

Amen son. Blagojevich and Daley are single handedly ruining this state. Illinois has the highest gas prices in all of U.S, tollways are astronomical (bullshit) because our highways have been paid off for the last 20 years, cigarette and liquor taxes are high, you cannot smoke anywhere either. My next house is going to be in Northwest Indiana. Fuck this state.
End of rant

 

[cookiecutter]

I agree. I don't think people are uneducated, they just don't know how, or are too lazy to critically evaluate the material they are presented.

EDIT: At Einherjar

 

[Valerie]

The question is though, do we crave, or fall victim to controlling propaganda?

Well, not every person in the west is the same, but one, both, or maybe even neither of those things apply to many people.

 

[cookiecutter]

Good point

 

[rms]

That's a very true statement. I saw a family of villagers who had NOTHING Nec, barely even a house. Yet you look at their kids laughing and enjoying themselves... god I don't see kids like that in Western society.

how can you judge the entire western society over your experience in Australia, living there, and maybe travelling other places? Why the fuck would you want to live in Indonesia.

 

[Einherjar86]

Illinois has the highest gas prices in all of U.S, tollways are astronomical (bullshit) because our highways have been paid off for the last 20 years, cigarette and liquor taxes are high, you cannot smoke anywhere either. My next house is going to be in Northwest Indiana. Fuck this state.
End of rant

New York too. They installed the tolls to pay for highway construction, but when everything is finished do the tolls go away? Fuck no, they're still sitting there, still charging people to go to fucking work. It's ridiculous. One of the more subtle ways in which the government does infringe upon our liberties.

 

[Belligerent]

^ You've got to wonder where all the toll money is REALLY going. Not to the roads obviously because the pothole problems are worse then they have ever been. Not to mention tolls creating even more traffic which is ridiculous enough.