Did Venom really start black metal?

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Yea.Of course you had Sarcófago,666(thanks Nec for naming them) and Sodom, among others, who helped to the development.

Oh big time. The Sodomy and Lust EP scared the hell out of me when I was like...12 or 13. And of course early Rvnning Wild and KAT. And Crux and Tormentor. But see, everyone loved and wanted to be Venom, which is why I think they should get all the credit for starting it - they were the inspiration to all the bands who moved it into the early 90's.
 
Venom is like Kiss in a sense that they were new at the time, and the people growing up in that time period were exposed to something completely new. Venom were shocking back then, they had the cool imagery, rebellion, and the Satanic lyrics hardly anyone had. Now adays they don't stick out very much compared to say Gorgoroth.
Venom is like punk mixed with metal, with Satanic lyrics so in that sense they are a little black metalish. Bathorys "Blood Fire Death" album had some really good black metal vocals for the 80's so I give more credit to Bathory, but really its just a mixture of the proper styles/influences from various bands like Celtic Frost, Hellhammer, Mercyful Fate, Slayer etc... that created black metal.
 
I still don't consider Venom black metal, even after getting beaten over the head by Necuratul about it. But one thing this kind of argument has trained me to do is to use the term "first-wave black metal" when referring to older bands that contributed to modern BM but don't have the modern sound. It's less offensive to the genre sticklers than calling Venom "not black metal". :)
 
Venom is unquestionably Black Metal. Anybody who says that Venom is not Black Metal is either appealing to revisionist history or is simply ignorant. Venom was Black Metal in 1982, and Varg fucking around with a guitar in Norway in 1992 did not change that in any way, regardless of whether or not Burzum doesn't sound like Venom (and since Venom was first, shouldn't Burzum sound like Venom if Burzum is to be Black Metal?). Black Metal is not defined solely on sound anyway.

Sort of.

Terminology is subjective... it's not a "come first and stake your claim to the meaning" kind of thing. Words have no inherent value: people define what words mean, and hence meanings can change over time. Nobody nowadays is gonna use "gay" to mean happy.

HOWEVER, as Nec points out in his argument, that doesn't mean that "gay" now means homosexual in every book in the world; it symbolizes what it meant at the time to book was written. But I could still call what the Theban Legion did "gay sex" and have people understand me today. That's not revisionist history, that's language.

In other words, Venom would now be considered "thrash metal," although, as Nec points out, they had an embryonic black metal ideology, and they unquestionably contributed to the founding of what we now understand as the black metal genre.

You could still call them black metal if you really think ideology trumps sound (which a lot of black metal lovers do). Or you could call them first wave black metal and avoid the confusion. Although, for the record, I think the sound thing is a bunch of pretentious ANUS-forum bullshit.
 
Venom was Black Metal in 1982...
I think Venom should be considered black metal, but I also find such historical arguments to be bad ways to justify this. Venom fit into a modern first/second wave typology perfectly without arguing about what they were considered historically. Also I'd say they were black metal by 1981.

No.

They are thrash
Venom would now be considered "thrash metal"
Calling them thrash is faulty, not only because it falls into the binary conception of "genre" that is largely responsible for the confusion leading to discussions like this but also because Venom had a large amount of songs that can't accurately be called thrash. On Welcome To Hell you only have "Witching Hour", the rest could hardly be called pure thrash. Also this implies some big musical difference between Bathory and Venom, when they are in fact very similar. Bathory's "Born For Burning", when looking at the guitar work, has nothing that isn't found over and over in Venom's material; it's much more similar to Venom than to the typical second wave sound.
 
There are at least three or four different issues here:

1. 'Black Metal' as a genre vs. 'Black Metal' as a self-conscious artistic movement

2. Who was 'first' vs. who is most significant

3. Enduring contributions vs. ease of citation

4. Location, location, location

It should be fairly obvious that Venom was indeed among the first if not the first black metal band. However, their significance to the future development of black metal, especially as it emerged (in a self-conscious form) in the early 1990s is vastly overstated. It's pretty apparent at this point that Bathory and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost were not only much better bands, but vastly more influential as well. Venom's enduring legacy is largely accidental: they demonstrated that there was potential in dark, deliberately transgressive metal that made no compromises in the direction of an accessible listening experience. However, the real innovations and the basic lexicon of the emerging genre were provided by others: Bathory and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost most importantly, but Slayer, Possessed, Sepultura and Sodom as well. The continued emphasis on the importance of Venom is largely a product of accessibility (Venom albums have never been hard to find), intellectual shortcuts ("they have an album called Black Metal!") and simple geography (the most influential metal rags are based out of the US, Canada and the UK, and metal writers from these areas have always tended to overstate the significance of British and American acts).
 
Venom is unquestionably Black Metal. Anybody who says that Venom is not Black Metal is either appealing to revisionist history or is simply ignorant. Venom was Black Metal in 1982, and Varg fucking around with a guitar in Norway in 1992 did not change that in any way, regardless of whether or not Burzum doesn't sound like Venom (and since Venom was first, shouldn't Burzum sound like Venom if Burzum is to be Black Metal?). Black Metal is not defined solely on sound anyway.

+10

As much as I hate to agree with Doden (and he knows I do lol)he is right about Venom. I don't know how many forum members are old enough to have grown up in the early 80's when Venom made a impact but every metalhead fan that I knew back then referred to Venom as Black Metal then for sound as well as ideology. They were the first even if their sound was very primitive BM. Every single 2nd wave band imo was influenced by Venom and Bathory among a few others and it wasn't because Venom's sound was "thrash". Bathory took Venom's sound a step further but that didn't make Venom any less BM. All genre's evolve and all have a beginning in sound and ideology. Much like Metal in general. Sabbath started it all but that doesn't mean they were not metal because others after them took their sound further.

P.S. as for what Bathory song to use as a reference. I would say anything off the Born Under The Black Mark album.
 
"Did Venom really start black metal?"

the answer is: who cares?

To me, Bathory started black metal and viking metal.
 
Remember when you used to be able to get banned for replying with "Living Colour"?

Good times.
 
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