Did Venom really start black metal?

[skeptik]

Sure, you can point to tons of Bathory riffs that sound like Venom riffs, but what's far more telling is that you can point to lots of DarkThrone, Burzum, Immortal, Graveland, Emperor, etc. riffs that sound like Bathory riffs, and virtually none that sound like Venom.

This is blatantly wrong, and even as such, you hear the influences of Venom through the influences of Bathory.

 

[KevenZ]

the most black metal aspect of them is the lyrics and the raw production.

Yet DMDS isn't raw.

And it's considered by many as of one the best bm of all times.

 

[Boiorix]

Seems inaccurate to characterize the developmental period of the second wave as a dormant period.

Except that, practically speaking, there was no development involved. During these years, Mayhem was adding nothing to the genre, Sarcofago were banging out Sepultura worship made unique only be the near absence of production, and Tormentor, awesome though they were, they were still:

A) almost totally unknown, and essentially completely unavailable (remember, none of their work was released prior to 1995)

and

B) much closer in practice to the work of say, Possessed than any prior or future black metal band.

That aside this is most certainly not the unique aspect of black metal that V.V.V.V.V. was asking after, unless you have a theory associating this time line with the present controversy.

I disagree totally. The difficulty in defining 'black metal' pre-1990 is almost entirely a product of that punctuated development pattern. Keep in mind that most genres (in recorded music) go from the embryonic stage to their fully developed form within 3-5 years. That time compression makes for a fairly predictable and linear development process that makes sorting the artists out fairly easy (cf. death metal, where things are a little murky in 84/85, fairly clear by 1987, and no one has any trouble sorting the death from the thrash by 1989). Black metal didn't solidify as genre until a full decade after it first appeared, and the result is that, by the time the second wave bands fleshed out black metal as it recognizably exists today were drawing on essentially 3-4 entire generations of metal simultaneously - which goes a long way toward explaining why pinning down 'black metal' in the years before 1990 becomes so difficult in retrospect.

 

[Boiorix]

This is blatantly wrong, and even as such, you hear the influences of Venom through the influences of Bathory.

How so? The Bathory riffs that influenced later black metal have largely been the slow atmospheric ones and (especially) the fast, melodic tremolo picked riffs that are Bathory's unique contribution to the genre, rather than the riffing style Bathory inherited from Venom (who inherited it from Motorhead). Venom's legacy is an image and the germ of an idea, not music.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Except that, practically speaking, there was no development involved. During these years, Mayhem was adding nothing to the genre, Sarcofago were banging out Sepultura worship made unique only be the near absence of production, and Tormentor, awesome though they were, they were still:

A) almost totally unknown, and essentially completely unavailable (remember, none of their work was released prior to 1995)

and

B) much closer in practice to the work of say, Possessed than any prior or future black metal band.

This is all very interesting, although I really don't see how black metal evolving 1981-1990 is much more significant than death metal evolving 1983-1987, nor how Amputation/Morbid/Old Funeral/et al. weren't developing through their demo days - perhaps you could describe when the significant progression took place and what exactly you feel it was? Right now I'm getting the impression that those first 3-5 years in Norway were irrelevant and then suddenly BAM second wave.

I disagree totally. The difficulty in defining 'black metal' pre-1990 is almost entirely a product of that punctuated development pattern. Keep in mind that most genres (in recorded music) go from the embryonic stage to their fully developed form within 3-5 years. That time compression makes for a fairly predictable and linear development process that makes sorting the artists out fairly easy (cf. death metal, where things are a little murky in 84/85, fairly clear by 1987, and no one has any trouble sorting the death from the thrash by 1989). Black metal didn't solidify as genre until a full decade after it first appeared, and the result is that, by the time the second wave bands fleshed out black metal as it recognizably exists today were drawing on essentially 3-4 entire generations of metal simultaneously - which goes a long way toward explaining why pinning down 'black metal' in the years before 1990 becomes so difficult in retrospect.

The present controversy in question, of course, being the sound/imagery one. How does all this relate to that?

 

[skeptik]

How so? The Bathory riffs that influenced later black metal have largely been the slow atmospheric ones and (especially) the fast, melodic tremolo picked riffs that are Bathory's unique contribution to the genre, rather than the riffing style Bathory inherited from Venom (who inherited it from Motorhead). Venom's legacy is an image and the germ of an idea, not music.

Surely you are aware that Black Metal existed in the early 90s outside of Norway? And even in Norway, you can hear Venom's influence, especially in earlier Mayhem and Darkthrone.

 

[Boiorix]

This is all very interesting, although I really don't see how black metal evolving 1981-1990 is much more significant than death metal evolving 1983-1987

You don't see how it could be significant that the gap between 'birth' and maturity for black metal is TWICE AS LONG or more than it was for any other metal subgenre? I mean, the gap between the end NWOBHM (Number of the Beast) and full on death metal is 3 years - that's three full generations of metal within a 3 year span. So, if you don't see the potential significance of a 10 year gap, you're a little slow.

nor how Amputation/Morbid/Old Funeral/et al. weren't developing through their demo days

All of these bands were and remained death metal throughout their brief histories - you can throw Phobia, DarkThrone prior to A Blaze in the Northern Sky and Thou Shalt Suffer onto the same list. NONE of these bands or their personnel were involved with black metal prior to 1991.

perhaps you could describe when the significant progression took place and what exactly you feel it was?

The big leap was made in 1990/91, first by Mayhem, who at this time developed in skeletal form what would be their signature sound up to the death of Euronymous. The process wasn't at all gradual - bands that had been playing death metal in early 1991 were, by the end of the year, firmly ensconced in the emerging black metal scene which had hitherto not even existed. These key bands - Mayhem, Burzum, DarkThrone, and Immortal, soon to be joined by Emperor, Enslaved and Gorgoroth - were responsible for developing black metal as a coherent genre, united in concept, aesthetic and intent.

The present controversy in question, of course, being the sound/imagery one. How does all this relate to that?

It's so obvious that it should be embarrassing for you to even ask. Because black metal existed as an idea rather than a coherent genre for the first 10 years, we should expect to find that the black metal bands of this period are united by shared concepts rather than shared aesthetics.

DUH.

 

[Boiorix]

Surely you are aware that Black Metal existed in the early 90s outside of Norway?

Leaving aside the decidedly inferior quality of the early Greek scene (the only other region where black metal was a going concern in the early 1990s), the Greek bands were even less influenced by Venom than their Norwegian counterparts.

Rotting Christ = Autopsy + Hellhammer + Iron Maiden

Necromantia = Hellhammer + Judas Priest

Varathron = Hellhammer + Iron Maiden

And even in Norway, you can hear Venom's influence, especially in earlier Mayhem and Darkthrone.

You can certainly hear Venom in the earliest strata of Mayhem's recordings, but by the 90's (you know, the recordings that actually matter, in the great scheme of things), that influence was gone. As for Darkthrone, what the hell have you been smoking? The major influences on A Blaze in the Northern Sky are painfully obvious: Hellhammer, Under the Sign of the Black Mark and the band's own past history in death metal. There isn't a Venom riff to be found.

 

[zoidberg]

venom is black metal. period.

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

Leaving aside the decidedly inferior quality of the early Greek scene (the only other region where black metal was a going concern in the early 1990s), the Greek bands were even less influenced by Venom than their Norwegian counterparts.

Rotting Christ = Autopsy + Hellhammer + Iron Maiden

Necromantia = Hellhammer + Judas Priest

Varathron = Hellhammer + Iron Maiden



You can certainly hear Venom in the earliest strata of Mayhem's recordings, but by the 90's (you know, the recordings that actually matter, in the great scheme of things), that influence was gone. As for Darkthrone, what the hell have you been smoking? The major influences on A Blaze in the Northern Sky are painfully obvious: Hellhammer, Under the Sign of the Black Mark and the band's own past history in death metal. There isn't a Venom riff to be found.

Hellhammer was heavily influenced by venom and was driven by the desire to be "More evil than venom".

 

[Pessimism]

cock and ball torture started black metal! uke:

Don't disrespect the original cock's of the walk!


Also, Crux = & S<issors qftw on language usage.

 

[zoidberg]

Hellhammer was heavily influenced by venom and was driven by the desire to be "More evil than venom".

the song 'triumph of death' sounds like it could easily be a venom cover.

 

[Boiorix]

Hellhammer was heavily influenced by venom and was driven by the desire to be "More evil than venom".

Which, again, is meaningless, since the aspects of Hellhammer's music which influenced later artists were of their own invention.

 

[zoidberg]

after thrashing, bathory became the first straight up BM act with thier 3rd or 4th album. but there was many black/thrash bands before that.

cock and ball torture being one of them.

 

[Boiorix]

the song 'triumph of death' sounds like it could easily be a venom cover.

Right, because Venom were well known for long, narratively structured songs built around slow, doomy riffs.

Oh wait ...

 

[skeptik]

Leaving aside the decidedly inferior quality of the early Greek scene (the only other region where black metal was a going concern in the early 1990s), the Greek bands were even less influenced by Venom than their Norwegian counterparts.

Rotting Christ = Autopsy + Hellhammer + Iron Maiden

Necromantia = Hellhammer + Judas Priest

Varathron = Hellhammer + Iron Maiden



You can certainly hear Venom in the earliest strata of Mayhem's recordings, but by the 90's (you know, the recordings that actually matter, in the great scheme of things), that influence was gone. As for Darkthrone, what the hell have you been smoking? The major influences on A Blaze in the Northern Sky are painfully obvious: Hellhammer, Under the Sign of the Black Mark and the band's own past history in death metal. There isn't a Venom riff to be found.

Holy shit, die.

Also, I find it hilarious that you cite Autopsy as an influence for Rotting Christ, but leave it out for Darkthrone. "Decidedly inferior quality?" You just come off as a pissant little nerd with a hard-on for the ideal of True Norwegian Black Metal, so I'm just going to leave you be, and not even comment about how you're a complete moron to dismiss Deathcrush and how you're mistaken in pretty much entirely discounting Venom's influence in Black Metal past 1990.

 

[Boiorix]

Also, I find it hilarious that you cite Autopsy as an influence for Rotting Christ, but leave it out for Darkthrone.

The Autopsy influence on Darkthrone was strongest on the late 80s demo material, and had already dissipated significantly (or rather, been refined into something genuinely new) by Soulside Journey. There's certainly plenty of death metal in both A Blaze in the Northern Sky and Under a Funeral Moon, but this is A.) limited mostly to percussion technique at riff transitions and B.) drawn mostly from Fenriz's own personal style (as heard on Soulside Journey). To speak of Darkthrone's black metal recordings as if there is a significant

"Decidedly inferior quality?" You just come off as a pissant little nerd with a hard-on for the ideal of True Norwegian Black Metal

Who gives a rat's ass about "True Norwegian Black Metal" or any other branding bullshit? The fact remains that while Norwegian (and later Swedish, Austrian and Polish) bands were developing a complex musical and conceptual language, the Greek scene never really moved beyond the "elaborate heavy metal + theatrical Satanism" stage. Seriously, I love Scarlet Evil Witching Black as much as the next guy, but it's just not operating at the same level that Burzum or Immortal or Emperor peaked at.

and not even comment about how you're a complete moron to dismiss Deathcrush

Horseshit, viewed objectively, Deathcrush is more of the same delete-bin Sodom worship that the European scene was filled with in the mid to late 1980s. Its significance is as a historical artifact from the band that eventually recorded De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas, rather than its own inherent value.

and how you're mistaken in pretty much entirely discounting Venom's influence in Black Metal past 1990.

Venom was enormously influential, just not at a musical level. It was the image they projected, the willingness to violate taboos that is their enduring legacy.

 

[skeptik]

There's a significant amount of Autopsy influence in A Blaze In The Northern Sky. Ask Fenriz.

On what basis is it "not operating at the same level," because they didn't completely alter the way that Black Metal sounded in the 80s?

Your personal opinion on Deathcrush is irrelevant here. You're dismissing Deathcrush as a key evolutionary step in Black Metal. It's more than a "historical artifact."

Listen to Midnight.

 

[Jreg]

Which, again, is meaningless, since the aspects of Hellhammer's music which influenced later artists were of their own invention.

It's also pretty ridiculous to broadly generalize that the Venom influences stopped dead in their tracks at Hellhammer and completely failed to carry over into later bands.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

You don't see how it could be significant that the gap between 'birth' and maturity for black metal is TWICE AS LONG or more than it was for any other metal subgenre? I mean, the gap between the end NWOBHM (Number of the Beast) and full on death metal is 3 years - that's three full generations of metal within a 3 year span. So, if you don't see the potential significance of a 10 year gap, you're a little slow.

Sure there's potential (look, this number is bigger than this one!); I just don't think you're illustrating the connection very well.

Because black metal existed as an idea rather than a coherent genre for the first 10 years, we should expect to find that the black metal bands of this period are united by shared concepts rather than shared aesthetics.

Based on...?

All of these bands were and remained death metal throughout their brief histories - you can throw Phobia, DarkThrone prior to A Blaze in the Northern Sky and Thou Shalt Suffer onto the same list. NONE of these bands or their personnel were involved with black metal prior to 1991.

Garage bands playing covers of black metal songs while writing music inspired by those songs aren't involved in black metal?

The big leap was made in 1990/91, first by Mayhem, who at this time developed in skeletal form what would be their signature sound up to the death of Euronymous. The process wasn't at all gradual - bands that had been playing death metal in early 1991 were, by the end of the year, firmly ensconced in the emerging black metal scene which had hitherto not even existed. These key bands - Mayhem, Burzum, DarkThrone, and Immortal, soon to be joined by Emperor, Enslaved and Gorgoroth - were responsible for developing black metal as a coherent genre, united in concept, aesthetic and intent.

I think you're going to have to spell it out judging by other responses, what are the big changes made by Mayhem?