Do you think amp heads are overpriced?
- Thread starter LBTM
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Empathy
Bulging Member
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
xFkx
gain induction
to the first part - not really.
It's quite astounding you can spend half the price on a custom amp here, than a imported production model, which is ass backwards - especialy compared to guitars.
Acctualy it's mind blowing that you can buy a semi-decent used car for a used bogner amp. wtf ?
Also there is the term of luxury goods, where the laws of econmics flip on the head, and increasing the price acctualy increses the sales.
In one word, it's a conspiracy !
Mutant
I hate that supercow !
If we are talking about "vintage" type amps with no specialized microchips and pcbs inside, you can always look up a schematic and then compare prices of individual parts at your local electronics store.
Sloan
Sounds like shit!
some prices rely solely on the brand. there are some fucking great deals nowadays. consumers vote with their money. buy a shitty made amp for 1000000 and you vote for an expensive piece of shit that provides the manufacturer a very nice profit margin. buy an equally shit amp for 100 and you force that 1000000 amp company to chill the fuck out and MAYBE pull their heads out of their asses to lower prices OR provide an amp deserving of the price.
with all that said. always buy used. no reason to get fucking ripped.
with all that said. always buy used. no reason to get fucking ripped.
Jind
Grrrr!!! (I'm a bear)
- Mar 7, 2009
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Consumers may vote with their money, but every consumers price point is different and relative to their individual situations. Why do Boggies cost so much - because a select population is willing to pay the price asked so why would they lower their prices? To sell more product? Why - I'm pretty sure they manufacture an amount based upon what they believe they can sell, they staff to that level, they price point to what they believe a number of consumers will pay to acquire that product. If they sell their product at bargain basement prices sure they will sell more, but they will also have to increase manufacturing costs/staffing which comes out of their bottom line.
Even on the used market - certain products sell for more simply because of their name or model. Why because demand dictates the price a consumer is willing to pay. Something mass produced rarely resells for more than that special rarity. It's all relative to each individual consumer and the price they are willing to pay. If the sellers price is not realistic it will not sell till they reach that price some consumer will pay.
Lesson - you set the price you are willing to pay, but the seller sets the price they are willing to accept for a given service or product - in a perfect price point both parties end up getting what they want in the deal if they are realistic about it. You may think $2000 is a lot for an amp, someone else (a lot of them) does not.
Even on the used market - certain products sell for more simply because of their name or model. Why because demand dictates the price a consumer is willing to pay. Something mass produced rarely resells for more than that special rarity. It's all relative to each individual consumer and the price they are willing to pay. If the sellers price is not realistic it will not sell till they reach that price some consumer will pay.
Lesson - you set the price you are willing to pay, but the seller sets the price they are willing to accept for a given service or product - in a perfect price point both parties end up getting what they want in the deal if they are realistic about it. You may think $2000 is a lot for an amp, someone else (a lot of them) does not.
crillemannen
Member
Say a Dual rectifier. Does anyone knows what the actual price is to make those? Labor included? And how many hours it takes to assembly one.
That is the only way to know if they are overpriced.
That is the only way to know if they are overpriced.
StefTD
Member
you could ask the same thing for almost every product people are going to pay it anyway...
some amps may be overpriced for sure, but others aren't at all, loads of amps are built in China or somewhere
else because it would be way to expensive to build them in Europe or the USA.
You're not paying for the amp alone, you pay for the staff, for the buildings, for the taxes and you pay guys
like me who try to advertise products so you're going to buy them, even if they're really overpriced
people are going to pay it anyway...some amps may be overpriced for sure, but others aren't at all, loads of amps are built in China or somewhere
else because it would be way to expensive to build them in Europe or the USA.
You're not paying for the amp alone, you pay for the staff, for the buildings, for the taxes and you pay guys
like me who try to advertise products so you're going to buy them, even if they're really overpriced
azistenostora
Member
Of course they are! Take a head apart and look what's inside. Do you think those couple of wires and resistors are worth 2000 bucks? No, but we're still going to buy them cause they are Mesa, Engl xyz...
I had a colleague who worked in finance for Peavy and she said the profit on every head was ridiculous. The manufacturing was only a fraction of the price.
I know wages, planning, marketing bla bla... still overpriced as fuck.
I had a colleague who worked in finance for Peavy and she said the profit on every head was ridiculous. The manufacturing was only a fraction of the price.
I know wages, planning, marketing bla bla... still overpriced as fuck.
amarshism
Member
TheWinterSnow
Den Mørke Natt
I used to think amps where overpriced. But the more you look at it, the more you realize if every company involved in manufacturing, marketing, shipping, and sales (and if applicable customs) to get the amp to a local music dealer or your front door and still remain afloat, those companies aren't making much. You take the components used to make the products, while most are cheap, items like the chassis and transformers are not cheap.
Just think, transformers are iron plates (not cheap) strapped together then have thousands upon thousands of copper wire (copper is super expensive) winding in between the plates, held together with paper and glue between each layer. Just watch the making of a speaker voice coil, that is just one layer, a transformer will have that a couple hundred more times. Then take that and realize they are connected up to lead pins usually silver and tinned, if not having connectors on them, but the whole assembly is encased in a protective shell. The grand total of a transformer weight is a hodgepodge of solid iron, steel or ferrite, and copper, weighing on average 20lbs for a 120W output tranny and 400W power tranny. Since most companies don't make their own transformers, they buy from other companies, which have to make their profit, and the amp manufacture has to pay shipping, which isn't cheap considering their weight.
Then we talk about the fact that the wood construction on the amps are made from 8-13ply birch and hardwood is heavy and expensive. Most good manufactures dovetail the corners which is a skill all its own. And to top it off most manufactures have another third party vendor that manufactures and silk print and if applicable powder coat or chrome/anodize the chassis. Better chassis are welded at the edges which adds more to the cost. As they are also not light weight, the shipping cost of chassis is only tacking on the manufacture price.
After that is all said and done, the people on the assembly line need to be paid, the company needs a margin of profit to keep running, so they set that, its usually not much either, manufacture cost, plus a fixed percentage of that cost and that percentage usually applies to employee wages, all the company's costs (leasing the building, maintaining the equipment, upper management, marketing).
Then a little bit is added to the final price as the distributor has to pay the shipping. Now the average 120W amp weighs about 60lbs. Not cheap to ship and even more expensive when you ship out of the country as now you have customs fees, the original shipper has to fill out more paperwork (more time, more money). Shipping something that weighs that much to another country is or even continent is why American products are so damn expensive in Europe and especially Australia and vise versa.
So after the shipment reaches the distributor, the distributor will mark up the price not only to cover the price of the product, the shipping cost, possible customs fees, and will add their own cut to the profit as they have to make a profit for their business.
Then after ALL of that is done, it is bought and shipped off to either you or the music store. With the music store, they have to pay shipping, they have to mark up the price so that they can make a profit to pay the employees, marketing, business fees (utilities, lease, upper management etc) plus interest to keep the company growing.
If you where to buy online from a music company, you are paying their costs plus the shipping.
And then we forget the fact that the final cost includes warranty where most companies waive the shipping charges, to send it off to the nearest place (if not the manufacture) to get it fixed and sent back to you free of charge. Also realize that the bench techs that fix amps like that are paid $20 an hour in the US, more depending on where you are at in Europe.
Its then not so far fetched to see why an amp that originally cost the manufacture 300-400 USD to build, to cost about 900-1000 USD at the music store.
The reason cars are so cheap, is that they are mass produced and not shipped very far, there is no middle men and no third party shipping company. Cars are actually more mass produced that guitar amps and have much faster, more efficient technology. Because of this, the margin of profit to the manufacture can be much less. To top it off, the supply and demand curves for vehicles exceeds the demand for guitar amps. If supply is much higher than the demand relative to the supply of guitar amps, the final price, is going to be lower for a car than a guitar amp, regardless of how much it costs to manufacture.
Yes the companies involved want to achieve as much profit as possible. They will get their margin of profit as high as they can get for a certain population that is willing to pay. The more they charge extra, the more stable to company is, the longer they will be around, and the more stable their prices will be when the economy shifts during low seasons or years. Basically everything Jind said. They know you will pay it, because to you its worth it. Still the price to manufacture a guitar amp, is still not cheap. Back when I was wanting to build my own amp, I found out real quick, its not a cheaper way to go. You will end up spending more money building your own, so if you want to save, go buy one in the store. If you don't care about price and want the experience of building your own, then go that route.
I am still surprised that companies like Peavey can sell Windors for the price that they do and still make any profit off of it.
Just think, transformers are iron plates (not cheap) strapped together then have thousands upon thousands of copper wire (copper is super expensive) winding in between the plates, held together with paper and glue between each layer. Just watch the making of a speaker voice coil, that is just one layer, a transformer will have that a couple hundred more times. Then take that and realize they are connected up to lead pins usually silver and tinned, if not having connectors on them, but the whole assembly is encased in a protective shell. The grand total of a transformer weight is a hodgepodge of solid iron, steel or ferrite, and copper, weighing on average 20lbs for a 120W output tranny and 400W power tranny. Since most companies don't make their own transformers, they buy from other companies, which have to make their profit, and the amp manufacture has to pay shipping, which isn't cheap considering their weight.
Then we talk about the fact that the wood construction on the amps are made from 8-13ply birch and hardwood is heavy and expensive. Most good manufactures dovetail the corners which is a skill all its own. And to top it off most manufactures have another third party vendor that manufactures and silk print and if applicable powder coat or chrome/anodize the chassis. Better chassis are welded at the edges which adds more to the cost. As they are also not light weight, the shipping cost of chassis is only tacking on the manufacture price.
After that is all said and done, the people on the assembly line need to be paid, the company needs a margin of profit to keep running, so they set that, its usually not much either, manufacture cost, plus a fixed percentage of that cost and that percentage usually applies to employee wages, all the company's costs (leasing the building, maintaining the equipment, upper management, marketing).
Then a little bit is added to the final price as the distributor has to pay the shipping. Now the average 120W amp weighs about 60lbs. Not cheap to ship and even more expensive when you ship out of the country as now you have customs fees, the original shipper has to fill out more paperwork (more time, more money). Shipping something that weighs that much to another country is or even continent is why American products are so damn expensive in Europe and especially Australia and vise versa.
So after the shipment reaches the distributor, the distributor will mark up the price not only to cover the price of the product, the shipping cost, possible customs fees, and will add their own cut to the profit as they have to make a profit for their business.
Then after ALL of that is done, it is bought and shipped off to either you or the music store. With the music store, they have to pay shipping, they have to mark up the price so that they can make a profit to pay the employees, marketing, business fees (utilities, lease, upper management etc) plus interest to keep the company growing.
If you where to buy online from a music company, you are paying their costs plus the shipping.
And then we forget the fact that the final cost includes warranty where most companies waive the shipping charges, to send it off to the nearest place (if not the manufacture) to get it fixed and sent back to you free of charge. Also realize that the bench techs that fix amps like that are paid $20 an hour in the US, more depending on where you are at in Europe.
Its then not so far fetched to see why an amp that originally cost the manufacture 300-400 USD to build, to cost about 900-1000 USD at the music store.
The reason cars are so cheap, is that they are mass produced and not shipped very far, there is no middle men and no third party shipping company. Cars are actually more mass produced that guitar amps and have much faster, more efficient technology. Because of this, the margin of profit to the manufacture can be much less. To top it off, the supply and demand curves for vehicles exceeds the demand for guitar amps. If supply is much higher than the demand relative to the supply of guitar amps, the final price, is going to be lower for a car than a guitar amp, regardless of how much it costs to manufacture.
Yes the companies involved want to achieve as much profit as possible. They will get their margin of profit as high as they can get for a certain population that is willing to pay. The more they charge extra, the more stable to company is, the longer they will be around, and the more stable their prices will be when the economy shifts during low seasons or years. Basically everything Jind said. They know you will pay it, because to you its worth it. Still the price to manufacture a guitar amp, is still not cheap. Back when I was wanting to build my own amp, I found out real quick, its not a cheaper way to go. You will end up spending more money building your own, so if you want to save, go buy one in the store. If you don't care about price and want the experience of building your own, then go that route.
I am still surprised that companies like Peavey can sell Windors for the price that they do and still make any profit off of it.
UPS cracked the bottom board of a Randall RM100 head I ordered a couple years ago. When looking to buy a new head shell from Randall they told me it would cost 500$... That is absolutely insane when the same head used can probably be found for that! I can't believe they charge that much for some boards and tolex.
Wish Wolfeman was back from his ToD so he could chime in on this. My opinion: some are, some aren't.
Kazrog
Kazrog, Inc.
There's not much markup on music gear, and a lot of stores are hurting. Fender's IPO filing recently is a great case in point. From this article:
So let's just take 2011 data as a kind of "best case" for a large company like Fender. Out of $700.6 million dollars in sales, only $3.2 million is actual profit after all expenses, salaries, etc. are paid. In 2010 they actually lost $17.3 million!
There are also a lot of middlemen that need to get paid. Reps, distributors, etc., not just your local music store. It's actually amazing how affordable a lot of music equipment is these days.
LA Times said:
So let's just take 2011 data as a kind of "best case" for a large company like Fender. Out of $700.6 million dollars in sales, only $3.2 million is actual profit after all expenses, salaries, etc. are paid. In 2010 they actually lost $17.3 million!
There are also a lot of middlemen that need to get paid. Reps, distributors, etc., not just your local music store. It's actually amazing how affordable a lot of music equipment is these days.
TheWinterSnow
Den Mørke Natt
Ding ding ding we have a winner. That was exactly what I was saying to a point. It is a surprise at the end of the day that large companies like Fender, Peavey, Mesa Boogie etc. can even make a profit off of the current price. And its also amazing that the prices are as affordable as they are.
Even though Fender did make 3.2 Million last year, the fact that they lost 17.3 Million the year before still means that they are 14.1 Million in the hole if they weren't in the hole overall. 3.2 Million may seem like a lot but for a company that big, if the expect to expand and grow, they need substantial net revenue and 3.2 Million is not enough before you even account for the fact that they are still in the hole from 2010 over 14 million. I would actually suspect that fender has already planned to shrink its operations for this fiscal year if they have not already, but for 2013. That is probably why they went from a 17 mil in the red to 3.2 mil rev was from cuts. I was hearing that they where sizing down last year and that would easily explain the small amount of revenue they did make form the year before's loss.
If companies expect to grow and continue, they need to make a profit and with current prices, some may be overpriced, but that large majority is barely making it.
i think smaller companies are overpriced though. there are many small companies who makes amp obly by order. and normally one guy build it. so called botique amps. i dont see any reason for it to cost 3000$. and also there is no dealer since its directly fron the manufactor
StefTD
Member
yeah, but these guys have to pay way more for the parts, for example, a german "boutique" amp builder I know
told me that there are some parts he uses for amps that cost like 2€ per piece if you order less than 10 in one
order, but if you order more than 5.000 of these things (sorry, forgot which part it is) you don't have to pay 2€
per piece, you only have to pay 0.08€ per piece... to bad he only needs one per amp.
So these guys have to pay more for all the parts and they have to develop all the stuff (sure, some just copy)
and if you built an amp by yourself, solder all the parts, it takes lots of time.
I've read a post from an amp builder on a German forum, who said that after all the time it takes to develop the
amps he builts, selecting the different parts, building prototypes and so on he doesn't earn more than a plumber
per hour, actually less most of the time.
Sure, there are guys who just built copies of old Marshalls or Fenders, nothing special and sell them for a few
thousand bucks, but imho musical equipment is pretty cheap for what it is most of the time.
told me that there are some parts he uses for amps that cost like 2€ per piece if you order less than 10 in one
order, but if you order more than 5.000 of these things (sorry, forgot which part it is) you don't have to pay 2€
per piece, you only have to pay 0.08€ per piece... to bad he only needs one per amp.
So these guys have to pay more for all the parts and they have to develop all the stuff (sure, some just copy)
and if you built an amp by yourself, solder all the parts, it takes lots of time.
I've read a post from an amp builder on a German forum, who said that after all the time it takes to develop the
amps he builts, selecting the different parts, building prototypes and so on he doesn't earn more than a plumber
per hour, actually less most of the time.
Sure, there are guys who just built copies of old Marshalls or Fenders, nothing special and sell them for a few
thousand bucks, but imho musical equipment is pretty cheap for what it is most of the time.
GeertSamuel
Member
I was typing a comment, then I read the thread back and eventually saw this ^ sums it up..
