@ Silent Song
My initial Intention was not to discuss the bible's content, but to find a general rule to render those discussions useless, using Christianity with the bible as an obvious example. I mean a rule or standard that goes for any supernatural, inexplicable being. And that standard IS science, in the sense of reason. Looking for obvious Authorities on this that I know, I found a statement by Richard Dawkins. He says basically the same as me (+ more), but in case I didn't make my point clear, I woudn't find better words than these:
On debating Religion
If you want to go the long way, proving details of the bible, proving the existence of God, proving his omnipotence, go ahead! You might as well prove any other faith wrong, or the omnipotence of another's god will beat that of yours.
@ Guitarmaster and Silent Song
I dislike Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism alike. Obviously there are countless prophets and saviours with well-meaning advices for a good life. They all have some moral contents I like, some I dislike, but I'm not going to argue over them. It would be a useless endeavor. I may agree with one on this topic and with another on that topic, but don't want to follow one of the aforementioned religions.
All of them claim to have a key to salvation. And that's supposed to mean happiness, through breaking the circle of reincarnation, climbing a caste or giving yourself in the hands of God. You will be rewarded in Heaven or Nirvana. But what makes them think people need salvation?
The more a culture suffers under crime, war, and poverty the more prophets it brings forth, who offer a set of rules that will save people. It's either fighting greed or selfishness, or promoting respect or justice or someting along those lines. But they need all people to agree on this. If everyone was christian and followed their understanding of these things, we'd all be happy, right? But people tend to call different things justice or greed. And tell me, when was the last time all people agreed on something?
Crimes like murder or thievery will always happen, if the conditions make it likely. No outlawing has ever stopped it. No commandment will ever stop anyone. No one is right about everything. You won't find a concept that works for everyone alike, because people tend to be individuals.
So, the prophets ask, what is wrong if conditions constantly stay the same? Of course, they say, god created us imperfect! We are sinners! People want to behave like that and give the devil way. And if you don't believe ME you're doomed. You have to live like me, they say. You won't make it on your own, because I have the key.
Starting from these premises, who wonders they end up fighting each other? What they want is peace but they think it's the people's fault it doesn't work. The system of being kind and just to each other is flawless, right? I know exactly what is right. So it MUST be the people.
But I strongly suggest that people are not sinners, and that neither imperfect nor perfect does them justice. All those prophets, they don't come to the simple conclusion, that their system cannot work for everyone alike. It's not that people SHOULD be nicer and kinder to each other. They will be if they have reason to! People don't need a god to tell them a damn thing about moral. Whatever WORKS for people, will be done, not what is RIGHT for people. You don't need to be a righteous person in this culture to have success, and that's the only reason why there are greed and crime.
And Jesus answer to that: Altruism, self-denial, as the path to salvation, which is entering heaven. Don't seek wealth or keep it. If it was actually true, that giving up things makes you happy, we wouldn't have a problem here. You can't win the hearts of all people by telling them salvation means losing something. That well-meaning but misguided part of Christianity couldn't possibly succeed over the millennia. It's main audience is naturally the poor. The prophets have in those the most obedient listeners. To them it makes perfect sense to believe that giving up things and possessing little will bring you to heaven. Great idea!
But do you really think that's luring for someone who owns a lot? Those are happy that the poor love being poor. (Remember what Marx said about Religion as Opium?). That's why Christianity has proven to be a perfectly fitting religion for societies living under kings and that it supports hierarchies very well. (Because finally the hierarchies will be inverted, right?)
What I descibe is not what is meant by Jesus or Moses or God, it's just how I see it work in a culture. If I would want to discuss the intentions of the bible I would just quote some verses from the bible. Certainly I know lots of Passages I don't like, that are threatening or evil. Certainly the bible is full of blood. But as I said, I'm not going to argue over moral here. That's up to the individual. My point is just that the concept doesn't WORK.
