Does God exist?

[Blaphbee]

It's very tough to argue an esoteric wisdom being inherent to such a fundamentally exoteric religion as Christianity.

What is the nature of this "proof" that is so evident to those who seek it - does it only manifest itself when you fully accept Jesus as your saviour (or can it be quantified into words which describe the epiphany of such an acceptance? - I see here the obvious snatch 'n' grab on Christianity's part), or is it merely a perspectival/relativistic grab at something bigger than you as an individual, which neatly compartmentalizes something as terrifying as the natural "objective" world into a pacifying absolute in order to comfort your fragile sense of existence by playing into your ego as a human being, a creature supposedly "better" than the rest of "god's" creations?

There are other ways of perceiving reality than as a disconnected entity entirely separate from it. One can actually act in harmonic balance within it, and with it, instead of being afraid of individual death if things aren't carefully sorted into safe/not-safe categories. You can change the perception of death in your head all you wish, but that doesn't change the fact that you will die at some point. Thus, it makes the most sense to me to find some form of balance with the apparent world, and to find meaningful things with which to fill your time spent here, instead of focusing on a possible existence in another dimension after your lifetime is over here in this one.

This is an honest question. Not a stab at you. Don't give me dogma as an answer.

 

[Blaphbee]

By the way, if you're going to tell me that I'll never understand your proof, because it stems from something beyond the solely material, save it. I understand the concept of metaphor, which is all that the concept of "god" is.

I realize the silliness of trying to materially "prove" an abstraction, not the least of which is simply because crowds need material proof of anything before they can collectively decide to do anything, thus making "proof" in and of itself somewhat retarded to anyone capable of using their brain, but to believe that an abstraction such as "God" or "heaven" can be personified or pointed to as it is represented as an abstraction is the kind of thing that people who deal in reality view as insanity.

 

[G-Master]

in order to comfort your fragile sense of existence by playing into your ego as a human being, a creature supposedly "better" than the rest of "god's" creations?

No human is better than any animal. People, including most Christians, kid themselves of that egotistical belief quite frequently. Humans, like other mammals or reptiles, are animals just like every other creature scattered about the continents.

However, every species tends to act and react with instinct, their objective in life is to live, and to rely continuously on their natural resources surrounding them. What separates us (animals, or humans if you like) from the rest of Earth's denizens, is not our vain boasts of being capable to reason, but that we are easily corrupted. Our self-centeredness and blatant disregard for the resources around us will mark the end of us.

So, in the end, and the most saddening reminder for us all is that it seems, for humanity at least, that it's in our nature to destroy ourselves.

But, I suppose your main question was directed toward, Silent Song, so I'll just stop here.

 

[Blaphbee]

No human is better than any animal. People, including most Christians, kid themselves of that egotistical belief quite frequently. Humans, like other mammals or reptiles, are animals just like every other creature scattered about the continents.

Of course. I agree.

However, that doesn't mean we have to fatalistically accept the biocentric point of view - you can still find harmony and balance, along with a view towards bringing you and your tribe upwards in evolutionary terms, without the destructive egoism involved in Judeo-Christian humanism.

 

[Cythraul]

What separates us (animals, or humans if you like) from the rest of Earth's denizens, is not our vain boasts of being capable to reason, but that we are easily corrupted.

god I hope you're joking.

 

[G-Master]

Do you think you're better than an animal because you "think"?

 

[RookParliament]

No human is better than any animal. People, including most Christians, kid themselves of that egotistical belief quite frequently. Humans, like other mammals or reptiles, are animals just like every other creature scattered about the continents.

Very true, though sometimes hard to see.

However, every species tends to act and react with instinct, their objective in life is to live, and to rely continuously on their natural resources surrounding them. What separates us (animals, or humans if you like) from the rest of Earth's denizens, is not our vain boasts of being capable to reason, but that we are easily corrupted. Our self-centeredness and blatant disregard for the resources around us will mark the end of us.

So, in the end, and the most saddening reminder for us all is that it seems, for humanity at least, that it's in our nature to destroy ourselves.

A wolf pack can eat all their natural prey and then die off themselves. A chance contact between two ecosystems;maybe a log floating on the ocean, can bring about interspecies contact that will result in the extinction of species and drastic ecosystem change. Nature's balance is not always harmonious. All animals are self-centered including humans. There was an ocean of blood spilled on this planet before any great ape created tools. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by corruption. How are we corrupted and who is doing the corruption? I honestly do think that what seperates humans from animals is our ability to reason and think ahead. I'm not saying we use it all the time; take for example all the various enviromental crisises coming to a head in this next century, but its there for us to think about what we are doing. We are not better than animals, but we are different from most.

 

[Cythraul]

Do you think you're better than an animal because you "think"?

No, I'm not taking issue with that. I disagree with what you identify as distinguishing us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

 

[Øjeblikket]

I realize the silliness of trying to materially "prove" an abstraction, not the least of which is simply because crowds need material proof of anything before they can collectively decide to do anything, thus making "proof" in and of itself somewhat retarded to anyone capable of using their brain, but to believe that an abstraction such as "God" or "heaven" can be personified or pointed to as it is represented as an abstraction is the kind of thing that people who deal in reality view as insanity.

ok, but, "reality" is an abstraction; especially when its definition is based on subjective experience.

 

[Kenneth R.]

you sound like one of those Jehova's Witnesses who go from house to house and never stop to show how they all know everything better than the other people...

and yet i am not. so how accurate is your perception of me?

 

[Kenneth R.]

By the way, if you're going to tell me that I'll never understand your proof, because it stems from something beyond the solely material, save it. I understand the concept of metaphor, which is all that the concept of "god" is.

I realize the silliness of trying to materially "prove" an abstraction, not the least of which is simply because crowds need material proof of anything before they can collectively decide to do anything, thus making "proof" in and of itself somewhat retarded to anyone capable of using their brain, but to believe that an abstraction such as "God" or "heaven" can be personified or pointed to as it is represented as an abstraction is the kind of thing that people who deal in reality view as insanity.

1. i disagree. God is not a metaphor.
2. i agree except the last of your second paragraph.

what i am saying is, if one does not believe in miracles, how can i explain how miracles prove the existance of the supernatural? if one does not believe in the supernatural, how can i provide accounts of miracles from myself and from others that prove this supernatural existance? that is why i say there is proof for those who seek it. if you want to understand the metaphysical, you have to move beyond physical proof.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Of course. I agree.

However, that doesn't mean we have to fatalistically accept the biocentric point of view - you can still find harmony and balance, along with a view towards bringing you and your tribe upwards in evolutionary terms, without the destructive egoism involved in Judeo-Christian humanism.

what egoism? Christanity preaches humbleness, not arrogance. you are mistaken.

 

[bornlivedie]

bornlivedie: i'm sorry you hold such a pessimistic view of the world. the very reason why these evils still exist in the world is because people like you do nothing to change it, and claim "you just can't win".

What are you talking about? Where did I say you can't win? So how accurate is your perception of me?

No human is better than any animal. People, including most Christians, kid themselves of that egotistical belief quite frequently. Humans, like other mammals or reptiles, are animals just like every other creature scattered about the continents.

However, every species tends to act and react with instinct, their objective in life is to live, and to rely continuously on their natural resources surrounding them.

Our self-centeredness and blatant disregard for the resources around us will mark the end of us.

First you dismissed the mosaic law, while Jesus refered to it. Now you dismiss god's idea that man is his special fellow. And you dismiss the biblical idea that the earth is ours to rule.
>>> nice to see you're on your way to reality


And then that....

So, in the end, and the most saddening reminder for us all is that it seems, for humanity at least, that it's in our nature to destroy ourselves.

Do you suggest we should fix our genes so it's not anymore in our nature to destroy ourselves?

 

[Kenneth R.]

The more a culture suffers under crime, war, and poverty the more prophets it brings forth, who offer a set of rules that will save people. It's either fighting greed or selfishness, or promoting respect or justice or someting along those lines. But they need all people to agree on this. If everyone was christian and followed their understanding of these things, we'd all be happy, right? But people tend to call different things „justice“ or „greed“. And tell me, when was the last time all people agreed on something?

„Crimes“ like murder or thievery will always happen, if the conditions make it likely. No outlawing has ever stopped it. No commandment will ever stop anyone.

this is what i was referring to. my point being, there is not different entities that are "justice" or "greed" but many wrong and one right interpretation. our problem is that we cannot decide which the right one is, though it exists beyond the reach of our decision-making. the notion that crime is not extinguishable should not stop people from fighting crime. if it is accepted as reality, it would only increase. what one does not oppose, one passively supports.

 

[G-Master]

A wolf pack can eat all their natural prey and then die off themselves. A chance contact between two ecosystems;maybe a log floating on the ocean, can bring about interspecies contact that will result in the extinction of species and drastic ecosystem change. Nature's balance is not always harmonious.

This is true. And a very good point on the matter.

All animals are self-centered including humans.

The distinctive, and in my opinion, the most significant difference of the self-centeredness of humans and animals, is that the animal is driven to maintain an order within their clan, or if a solitary creature, maintain order for themselves and its offspring. To provide food for the young, subdue the threats that oppose their protection, and to hone their skills in obtaining food with whatever tool(s) they possess for the duty.

Humans, however, with some notable exceptions, are mostly driven to migrate in order for the eradication of key forests and various regions, in order to expand the so-called "civilized" world. The chief drive, and underlying element of this drive, is money and the lust for wealth and power. We display complete and utter carelessness for our surroundings and key resources, and its not for the aid of others.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by corruption. How are we corrupted and who is doing the corruption?

In many cases, the corruption is formed by what it is that we have created: Money. Money is the substitute for instinct, which is inherent in all creatures in the animal kingdom. Humans are driven by money, they act without reason, they kill without question, and they bear no forethought of the consequences of their actions. Therefore, we then portray ourselves as living organisms that are no different than those in the animal kingdom.

If reason is the defining quality that humans possess, the quality that separates us from the rest of the animal kindgom, then money is the ultimate replacement for that inherent blessing. It is our downfall and the pathway to our decimation.

I honestly do think that what seperates humans from animals is our ability to reason and think ahead. I'm not saying we use it all the time; take for example all the various enviromental crisises coming to a head in this next century, but its there for us to think about what we are doing. We are not better than animals, but we are different from most.

You're exactly right. And I can certainly respect your views.

No, I'm not taking issue with that. I disagree with what you identify as distinguishing us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

I'll save any explanation because I believe I answered this above. But, if that's not an answer you're looking for, then ask again, and I'll be glad in attempting to clear it up.

Off-topic: By the way, Cythraul, Ulver is a fantastic band. Have you heard any songs from their latest opus, "Blood Inside" yet?

 

[G-Master]

First you dismissed the mosaic law, while Jesus refered to it. Now you dismiss god's idea that man is his special fellow. And you dismiss the biblical idea that the earth is ours to rule.

You clearly perceive me as the stereotypical Christian. Just keep one thing in mind: I'm not.

>>> nice to see you're on your way to reality

Nice to see you throwing an unreasonable insult at me. Mind explaining the logic behind that?

Do you suggest we should fix our genes so it's not anymore in our nature to destroy ourselves?

When you'd like to have a serious debate on the matter, born, write something that doesn't have the intentions of mockery littered within it.

 

[Kenneth R.]

You clearly perceive me as the stereotypical Christian. Just keep one thing in mind: I'm not.

me either

perhaps because the stereotype is an incorrect representation

 

[G-Master]

perhaps because the stereotype is an incorrect representation

Ditto.

 

[Silver Incubus]

this is pretty rediculous argument. Of course god exists. Has anyone here ever felt the devine consciousness? Does anyone hear know much about the new discoveries in quantum physics. Basically, we are all one thing coexisting at the same time. Think of yourself as a droplet of water, and everyone is part of the ocean. That ocean is god, and that ocean can create anything base off of pure devine consciousness. Old physics, works to a certain degree, but the fact that reality cannot really be comprehended by us as it is, seem to be the flaw in humans. We view time as change, when in fact everything that has and will happen already has. Hence the ability to forecast future events by other people. Its because everything and everyone is the same thing.

 

[no country for old wainds]

And that was also pretty ritarded argument.