Fahrenheit 9/11
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Why vote Bush this election? I haven't heard a good reason, and I voted for the fucker 4 years ago. I'm voting for Kerry because he might try to heal some international relationships that Bush has been intent on destroying and will most likely continue to do so.
So why should I vote for Bush?
So why should I vote for Bush?
The O'reilly voting process.
WOW!! Someone in this forum has a sense of humor!!!!!
Dark One
The Tainted Dogma
YESSSSSSSS!!!! I can't believe I'm finally hearing this. That's EXACTLY the mentality needed. In and of itself, that attitude doesn't address any issues or come up with great policy ideas, but man what a solid foundation it would provide for progress and harmony.J. said:
Black Winter Day
Member
JayKeeley
Be still, O wand'rer!
Yes, but only for furthering harmony in a heavilly divided USA. I think we need to look beyond these borders to be honest. This particular election impacts the entire world, and it doesn't matter one bit that there is finger pointing going on domestically, or the fucking USA is divided blah blah over healthcare and what not. Fuck that shit. That will go on forever. Right now, the WORLD needs to be made safer and so global opinion (whether people like it or not) is just as important as one that is purely homegrown.Dark One said:
And sure, any right wing neo-conservative on the street can tell me that any American who doesn't vote for Bush, or any American who disagrees with invading Iraq, is just a tree hugging unpatriotic anti-christian flag burning liberal, but unfortunately this assessment really doesn't apply to the rest of the world. Interestingly enough though, I'm sure *most* people who do vote for Bush really don't give a shit about global opinion/relations anyway, but at least then it explains the stereotype image that non-Americans have of the average American voter. Mysery solved.
Dark One
The Tainted Dogma
I don't disagree with you, but I do believe a more unified homefront will help us deal with the opinions of the rest of the world in a more confident manner, and that will show. It's tough to sell Bush going around the UN mandates when so many activists at home are calling him an idiot and so forth, I'm not saying that Bush's way was the right way to do things, but it lends credence that unpopular actions right off the bat will immediately be seen the same way in many nations' eyes worldwide.JayKeeley said:
I agree the Iraq war was ultimately rushed, but ultimately feel it was the right thing to do, just done in an unpopular and ununified manner. I'm not saying that if it was done in a more popular and unfied way on the homefront, that it still wouldn't have been frowned upon by many nations, but I do feel the reactions would have at least been lessened to a certain extent.
I'm definitely not in the "most" category you alluded to. I don't pass off other forms of gov't and popular opinions as irrelevant. I'm not in favor of "Americanizing" the world, but I do see it as wholly separate from providing a means for a democracy and free way of life in a suppresive, tortuous and evil regime.
neal
wizard in black
so people should support decisions that they feel are 100% wrong in the name of national unity? thats rediculous.
Dark One
The Tainted Dogma
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. People should support decisions they feel are 100% wrong in the name of national unity. Exactly.neal said:
neal
wizard in black
alright then wiseass, clarify yourself, becuase that is the impression i get when you talk about a 'unified homefront' and say that criticism of bush shapes international opinion, and that we should support our president and not criticize actions that we feel are wrong. its all there in your above statements. please, point out the error of my analyzation.
Dark One
The Tainted Dogma
Neal, do you really believe that's what I was saying?? Come on... I mean "we should support our president and not criticize actions that are wrong?????" You're putting words in my mouth. It's not the questioning or criticizing of policies that is wrong by any means. It's completely healthy, necessary and postive. It's just that when it's done to such a destructive, harsh and negative degree, it's counter productive.neal said:
For example, J. put it perfectly when he stated "......And when he critiques, he's not being overly-critical ala Bush/Kerry, but being a gentleman about it and saying "You really need to think about this" instead of saying "You Suck!"
That's the kind of attitude that allows for compromise and ultimately progress. Believe it or not, there is common ground to be found, even on the extremely tough issues.
I'm also talking about the fact that Bush was not willing to find more common ground with the Democrats (or simply the majority of those opposed) on the issue of the Iraq war, and that, as much as anything, is going to confuse and frustrate the majority of the world. Bush's decision to invade Iraq would most likely never have been fully accepted by those opposed in the first place, BUT there were alternate roads that he could have traveled without rushing into his decision (i.e. giving more time to the inspectors, etc.) If he had done some of those types of things, I think more people would have at least been willing to understand more where he was coming from. At the very least, I don't think our own nation would be so bitterly divided over the issue.
Now, as JayKeeley rightfully stated, it's about listening to the world as a whole as well, and discounting other forms of gov't, their cultures and belief systems is a terrible mistake. I didn't mean to convey that the rest of the world doesn't matter as long as we're living in harmony and showing a united front or anything. If that's how I came across, I apologize for that was not my intent. "Our brand of freedom" isn't what I would like the world to accept as the dominant force or anything. But I do think it is important that nations of the world have the freedom to be able openly practice their belief systems and enrich their cultural heritages.
neal
wizard in black
alright cool, thanks for clarifiying. i was drunk off bumwine and took your statements more extreme than you meant em.
Dark One
The Tainted Dogma
JayKeeley
Be still, O wand'rer!
What does that matter though? Bush was going to invade Iraq anyway. Plain and simple. It didn't matter what those inspectors came back with, he already had plans to invade Iraq even before 9/11, even before UN inspectors hit the ground out there.Dark One said:
This whole thing has become so convoluted through mass hysteria via 9/11 that we've forgotten all this. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but it was believed that Saddam had WMD's that could threaten the west. Bush and Blair said they had seen outstanding evidence to prove this, OUTSIDE of what the weapons inspectors found.
And now there are no WMDs. I mean, hello? *echo* So what is it? "Operation Iraqi Freedom"???? Seriously, what the fuck?
Yes, Saddam was a horrible dictator that gassed his own people, and killed thousands of Kurds, (although we loved him when he was at war with Iran right?) but this had nothing to do with the agenda of going into war. And now look at the mess we're in.
So what's next? Invade Iran? Invade North Korea? Actually, Bush would be less hypocritical if he did indeed invade those two countries, but he won't. And since there aren't exactly allies banging on his door, the future is looking like: "USA vs. Rest of World". (I have to believe that Blair is as good as gone, ending that personal alliance).
It was a HUGE fuck up. I mean, put all 'republican' bias aside and tell me that Iraq wasn't a huge mistake. I just can't fathom how anyone might think that this was the right thing to do with people dying needlessly.
Meanwhile, Osama Bin Laden is in the middle of godknowswhere. Insurgents are flocking to Iraq to kill more US troops. The Islamic world is beginning to detest the west all over again, and backstreet radical mullahs all around the world are gathering their troops to kill the 'infidels'. So tell me, how is the world safer? How is freeing Iraq going to solve everything?
I can accept that some people like Bush for his other values on gay marriage, or abortion, etc.. If people agree with this, then fine, and if not, go with the other guy. Whatever.
But Iraq is a blot on the global landscape. There is his daddy's unfinished business at play here. There is Haliburton. There is a sense of someone not admitting that he fucked things up just by having been horrendously naïve about how things worked outside of the US, and is never willing to admit that.
I just don't get how all this earns him 4 more years in the White House.
you are waaaay too rational ... just like Kerry ... unfortunatelly this is exactly what goes over the head of the average Bush voter ...
I am afraid the average American is still basing their opinion of any arab country based on old action movies ... so all Bush has to say is "Iraq Bad" ... and he has the vote.
You obviously have not been in the middle of the country ...
I am afraid the average American is still basing their opinion of any arab country based on old action movies ... so all Bush has to say is "Iraq Bad" ... and he has the vote.
You obviously have not been in the middle of the country ...
JayKeeley
Be still, O wand'rer!
But I do sincerely want to hear the other side of all this, at least for my own sanity.
Can someone at least play devil's advocate?
Can someone at least play devil's advocate?
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