Free will?

Do you believe in free will?


  • Total voters
    22
When you say THEY become determinate, are you saying that the noumena actually changes from being non determinate to determinate, OR that youre saying that because the noumenal world being being determined in the mind, and the determined thought isnt ontologically the same as the detemined noumenal world, that means the noumenal world isnt really being determined??

The latter. If it is determinate, then it is not the noumenal, but rather the phenomenal.

Why do you assume that just because the determinaton (itself) about the noumenal isnt ontologically identical with the noumenal world that it cant epistemologically cant be identical with the world, cant accurately correspond to the noumenal world, and cant match identically in content with what is in the noumenal world?

The only way to find out would be to know the things in themselves independent of mind, and we do not know anything at all independent of mind. That is the conundrum.

What are you requiring in certain knowledge about noumena? That the noumenal world be shoved into your brains and squished together?

This question indicates that you do not understand. Knowledge of the noumena would be mind-independent. We do not know independent of mind. It is akin to asking how I can experience without being an experiencer.

Why does a thoughts correspondance with the noumenal equate to no correspondance or incapable of rendering matching contentful knowledge of the noumenal world in itself?

This question is difficult for me to understand. I will answer it as best I can. Knowledge isn't a lucky guess. If you present a math problem that I am unable to solve and I guess the correct answer, I didn't know it. Similarly, if the noumena correspond to phenomena, you don't know. The only way to find out would be to compare the things first using our minds, then without, and the latter is impossible. The noumenal world is indeterminate by its very nature.
 
Ok Demiurge, just to make sure I understand you clearly, are you basically saying you know for sure, you cant know anything for sure?

That is not what I am saying. You are constructing a strawman argument. My position is not that nothing can be known except that nothing can be known. My position is that no justification for a belief is strong enough to be conclusive.
 
Demiurge said:
That is not what I am saying. You are constructing a strawman argument. My position is not that nothing can be known except that nothing can be known. My position is that no justification for a belief is strong enough to be conclusive.


Is that conclusive? Or I should ask, is your belief that "no justification for a belief is strong enough to be conclusive", justifiably strong enough to know that conclusively?
 
Dominick_7 said:
Is that conclusive? Or I should ask, is your belief that "no justification for a belief is strong enough to be conclusive", justifiably strong enough to know that conclusively?

It is strongly justified, but it is fallible, so....no.
 
Dominick_7 said:
How can it be both strongly justified (proved right) AND fallible (able to be wrong)?

Why do you insist on adding things to my posts which are not contained within them? It is not proved right in the sense of being certain, there is rather a tremendous body of evidence justifying belief in it, but it is not so strongly supported that it could not be false. Please understand that I am not saying it's proven, certain, infallible, conclusive, or any other synonym.
 
Demiurge said:
Why do you insist on adding things to my posts which are not contained within them? It is not proved right in the sense of being certain, there is rather a tremendous body of evidence justifying belief in it, but it is not so strongly supported that it could not be false. Please understand that I am not saying it's proven, certain, infallible, conclusive, or any other synonym.



If its not proven (which I wonder how that differs from being a justified belief), certain, infallible, conclusive or what not, why state it as a solid response/actual answer as opposed to just saying you don't really know. If it COULD be false, how does that then rule out there being a possibility for something that is actually and necessarily true?
 
It does not rule out the possibility, nor have I said that it does. Possibility is not equivalent to actuality; there are many things which are possible, but not actual. There are many things we'd consider "outlandish and silly" which are possible and have not been proven false, but which we give no credence to. It is, for example, possible that you have no mental states and I am speaking to an automaton deployed as an experiment by extraterrestrial lifeforms. I cannot prove that you experience mental states and do not just mimick the appearance of experiencing them in your daily life. "Possible" encompasses a great many statements which are not necessarily false. You need to have good reason to attribute actuality to a possibility. My argument in support of fallibilism is that whenever you say that you possess certain knowledge, you must justify your justification, then that justification, ad infinitum. You will never finish justifying and are caught in a futile infinite regression. The reasoning I have given above is not certain, either, as I would fall into an abyss if I tried to justify it conclusively. However, I take it to be true because there is nothing to defy it.
 
Demiurge said:
It does not rule out the possibility, nor have I said that it does. Possibility is not equivalent to actuality; there are many things which are possible, but not actual. There are many things we'd consider "outlandish and silly" which are possible and have not been proven false, but which we give no credence to. It is, for example, possible that you have no mental states and I am speaking to an automaton deployed as an experiment by extraterrestrial lifeforms. I cannot prove that you experience mental states and do not just mimick the appearance of experiencing them in your daily life. "Possible" encompasses a great many statements which are not necessarily false. You need to have good reason to attribute actuality to a possibility. My argument in support of fallibilism is that whenever you say that you possess certain knowledge, you must justify your justification, then that justification, ad infinitum. You will never finish justifying and are caught in a futile infinite regression. The reasoning I have given above is not certain, either, as I would fall into an abyss if I tried to justify it conclusively. However, I take it to be true because there is nothing to defy it.

Thank you for the more extensive reply and explanation. I agree possibility is not actuality, but to be able to state that would imply you necessrily know something about reality in order to say that. So something does defy what youre claiming..what you yourself are implying by what youre saying defies itself..but you don't seem to see that.


I'm wondering why it is you assume that every all knowledge requires justification by something else? Why can't there be some self justifying knowledge? In other words why can't there be truth that is self evident about reality (actually and necessarily true, as well as self justifying/clear in itself), rather than stating that everything is only made evident by something else?


And are you saying that its necessarily true that necessity doesnt apply to reality? IE: that it's actually and necessarily true concerning reality, that there are no actually necessary truths that can be known about reality?


What youre saying doesn't rule out the actuality of it either.
 
Thank you for the more extensive reply and explanation. I agree possibility is not actuality, but to be able to state that would imply you necessrily know something about reality in order to say that. So something does defy what youre claiming..what you yourself are implying by what youre saying defies itself..but you don't seem to see that.

I have not defied anything. I am more aware of the implications of my epistemology than you give me credit for. Let me explain. I have used deductive reasoning to conclude that that possibility and actuality are not equivalent. However, deduction itself cannot be proven. You might say that logical principles are self-evident, which leaves us with the question of why what we consider "self-evident" must be true. Underlying a specific inference, there are general rules of thought which justify it, but these too must be justified.

I'm wondering why it is you assume that every all knowledge requires justification by something else? Why can't there be some self justifying knowledge? In other words why can't there be truth that is self evident about reality (actually and necessarily true, as well as self justifying/clear in itself), rather than stating that everything is only made evident by something else?

If you say that a statement is self-evident, who judges it such? You do, perhaps I do, too; perhaps, all cognitively normal humans judge it to be such. What then justifies us as judges? Self-evidence is no solution.

And are you saying that its necessarily true that necessity doesnt apply to reality? IE: that it's actually and necessarily true concerning reality, that there are no actually necessary truths that can be known about reality?

I think it is pretty clear what I'm saying from my last post. Beliefs are not so strongly justified that they are conclusive. Actually, I believe you've already asked this question phrased a little differently.

What youre saying doesn't rule out the actuality of it either.

Sorry, I do not understand. Actuality of what?
 
If memory serves me, it was Socrates who made a conscious decision to live his life as if there were infact a God, even though there was of course no conclusive evidence in support, and still isn't.

I think in this way, belief is very intelligent and all we have when science doesn't offer us a definitive answer. This to me is definitely not something blind or ignorant as the arrogant nihilist might immediately point out.
 
I have not defied anything. I am more aware of the implications of my epistemology than you give me credit for. Let me explain. I have used deductive reasoning to conclude that that possibility and actuality are not equivalent. However, deduction itself cannot be proven. You might say that logical principles are self-evident, which leaves us with the question of why what we consider "self-evident" must be true. Underlying a specific inference, there are general rules of thought which justify it, but these too must be justified.

Is the deductive reasoning about actual reality (IE: Is it a contenful/content filled statement about actuality, or is it only reffering to the definition of what actuality would be IF it could be known?

If its the former, then its not deductive reasoning, its a contentful statement about reality in general, which implies you can know actual reality in itself.

If the latter its still an indirect statement about actuality..for youd have to know something about actual reality in order to know how to differentiate between abstract reality and non absract/actual reality. In order to draw the line beween what you can and cant know, you must look past the line in order to know where to draw the line, which implies some knowledge about whats beyond the line to be able to draw it.

IF you really want to push that as only being a definition about reality, then its saying nothing about actuality..If the definition has no refferent in actuality then it cannot make statements about it as to what you can or cannot know about it..for all those statements would be about it..either directly or indirectly. If its saying nothing about actuality then its saying nothing about anyTHING at all. If thsi s the case, wouldnt that mean youd be open to hearing that not everything needs a cause or explanation that refferences another thing besides itself? If not, why?

Besides that the question youre asking is as meaningless as is your epistemology. The question is like asking how we can really know that a triangle (which is that which has three sides) is that which has three sides. Its like asking what came before the first one, what caused the uncaused, and wheres the bachelors wife? The problem is that the reason we know for sure a triangle has three sides is just by unpacking what the words means in terms of what it is..and since nothing comes before the first, an uncaused being has no cause because its self existent/self explanatory, and a bachelor doesnt have a wife, those questions are meaninglss and contradictory. They make no sense, because they confuse categories ask for and demand the opposite of what a thing is or can be to simulateously also be the thing it opposes.

The reason we know something self evident (clear in itself/self explanatory/self justifying) is because thats what it is and what it means. Self evident means that the predicate (description, or that which is predicated about something) is identical or reducible to its subject. When the predicate matches what its refferring to, then its true. If an statement about the abstract corresponds to the abstract thing its refefring to, then its true abstractly. If a statment about actual reality corresponds to the actual thing its reffering to, then its true actually. The reason we know triangles have three sides is because the predicate (..has three sides) is identical to its subject, the word tri-angle. Therefore in regards to actual reality, the reason we know something actually exists (like myself..the reason we know "I exist" is actually true) is because the predicate ("I"=myself who is or has being/actuality), is reducible to the actual I thats thinking, stating it, or denying it. The actually produced thought or statement necessarily implies an actually existing producer of the thought, or statement. This is known immediately while being in the actual experiential process of asking or denying whether "I"exist". The discover takes place concurrently with the asking or denying..not before (apriori) or after (a posteriori)..

While I cant know if you exist with the same kind of certainty (self evidence and actual undeniabillity) I can know I actually do exist, for I must actually exist to deny I exist. Since every denial implies an actually existing producer of the denial, and this is shown while producing the denial, that "I /somthing exists" is true, the reason we know this with actual necessity is because its actually inescapable/undeniable. You cant deny its truth without necessarily affirming its truth in the process of denying it. While one can logically concieve in the mind, oneself not existing, in that its not a logically airtight argument, it is nevertheless self evident (actually and necessarily true) as well as actually undeniable.

What youre asking me is how I know (how I can show in a self evident, inescapable, and actually necessary way I can know for sure) that its true that self evident truth is a reality. Your question implies the reality of self evident and undeniabillity applies to reality, for its the very criteria youre implying in your very question about it. If youre not asking me for a real solid self justifying satisfactory answer, then you cant rule out the possibility of knowing actually necessary truth about reality..since that is the case, you cant meaningfully affirm that NO statement is conclusive about reality..thus you must reject your view inorder to be consistent, meaningfully, and reasonable/rational.


Besides youre only assuming EVERYTHING must have a cause (the contradictory principle of sufficient reason), yet what is uncaused, what is self evident, self explaining doesnt need one. Every house needs a foundation and only what comes to be, what changes, what could cease being needs a cause..if something doesnt come to be, but is eternal and uncaused, is unchanging, and cannot cease to be, it doesnt need a cause let alone need to find an explanation for its existence found in something else...rather the self explained, is just that, self explaining. The reason why it is self explaining and self evident is because thats the kid of thing it is. Why do you blindly assume that everything needs a cause? Wouldnt that imply the opposite of the false humility that comes about your epistemology, that one infinitely witholds judgment from everything..when in reality it assumes to know everything, to be able to know for sure, before experience, needs a cause..Whyd you assume that is true? All youre doing is showing that omniscience does exist, what is unchanging, infinite, and absolute does exist..but just showing also that its not you..because omniscience wouldnt make a self negating argument.




If you say that a statement is self-evident, who judges it such? You do, perhaps I do, too; perhaps, all cognitively normal humans judge it to be such. What then justifies us as judges? Self-evidence is no solution.

Thast another wrong question. WHO judges it such? The point is that it is self justifying even if many or none of us understand it or wants to. Reality doesnt ask us permission to be. One cant ask you your permission if you would like to start existing, before you start existing...you dont usually get asked if its ok for a cop to pull you over, and most of the time people dont get asked if its ok that you die someday. Reality is that which is, and we dont determine it, rather we discover it based on principles..we not only can and do do this, but we also live our lives that way, and cant meaningfully think, state, or deny it to the contrary. YOu can by my guest to say nahh ahh all day long..but while you can deny what is self evident all day, while you can state its not true formally, you cannot meaningfully deny it without implying its true in the process of the denial. Is it self evident, and sure that it is "NO solution"?? How would you know for sure its "NO solution" with such certainty and conclusiveness as to rule out even the possibility for something to be sellf evident, if self evidence is not true or real? The fact that you rule it out in certain terms, shows you know self evidence and necessity does apply to reality..for youre ruling out in a necessary way self evidence as applicable to reality..which is to prove that necessity/self evidece does apply to actual reality.




I think it is pretty clear what I'm saying from my last post. Beliefs are not so strongly justified that they are conclusive. Actually, I believe you've already asked this question phrased a little differently.

Interesting that you say that when just before you stated that you said "Self-evidence is no solution". How could you know for sure with absolute certainty, in a self evident/actually necessary way that self evidence/actual necessity doesnt apply to reality? The second you say that you imply self evidence/necessity applies to reality and the second you soften the "NO solution" to a "fallible" "weakend" view that states it "could be/is possibly a solution" you must then admit the possibility it could be, and thus be open to seeing the "evidence" for actual necessity..I put evidence in quotes because its not evidence in the way you understand it..as something being made evident by another thing..rather if one is open to just understad what is being stated, by understadning the terms being used, it can be shown that what is being stated is clear in itself, where one needs not go even beyond the statment to know its true as immediately knowable though experience and intuition.




Sorry, I do not understand. Actuality of what?

I also dont understand what youre reffering this to. Ill see if I can figure out what youre saying..but if what youre saying is true..how could I or anyone ever really even know that much? Youre epistemology would make even dialogue impossible..yet we are dialoging though hmm?
 
If memory serves me, it was Socrates who made a conscious decision to live his life as if there were infact a God, even though there was of course no conclusive evidence in support, and still isn't.

So are you saying you know for certain there is no God? If so, how do you know that?



I think in this way, belief is very intelligent and all we have when science doesn't offer us a definitive answer. This to me is definitely not something blind or ignorant as the arrogant nihilist might immediately point out.

While I disagree with nihilism in that it preports tobelieve in nothing, yet while retaining THAT AS that persons belief...I dont seem to understand how ungrounded or dogmatic assertions in any way replaces sound reasonable judgments based in reality knowable through ones intuition and experience. Science implies one knows something about reality and thus has a framework in place by which to know rality as it is in general, through which one can then interpret or make sense of the particulars one would find in any field of study..including science. Why would you think blind belief is superior to defensible argumentation? If you have no reason to believe one thing vs another, what reason is there to choose one belief over another? If no reason can be found within the belief system you use, what then would be the difference between believing in something vs beliving in nothing as the nihilist claims to do which interestingly enough, you correctly see as irrational and self refuting?
 
I can never be sure if there is a God or not, just as I can never be sure if leprechauns, via some profound telekinetic power, keep the solar system in rotation.

Intuition, in eastern philosophy, is the only thing that can provide you with a knowing. Linear, scientific thinking is restrictive and fails when trying to understand and grasp the absolute. It's like drinking the ocean with a small spoon, as opposed to one large gulp via a nervous system that is much more capable.

In otherwords, belief, that which cannot be proven scientifically, is not somehow lacking when it comes to grasping the true essence of our reality when we're honest, open, and using our intuitive sense. This is not new age.
 
Is the deductive reasoning about actual reality (IE: Is it a contenful/content filled statement about actuality, or is it only reffering to the definition of what actuality would be IF it could be known?

If its the former, then its not deductive reasoning, its a contentful statement about reality in general, which implies you can know actual reality in itself.

If the latter its still an indirect statement about actuality..for youd have to know something about actual reality in order to know how to differentiate between abstract reality and non absract/actual reality. In order to draw the line beween what you can and cant know, you must look past the line in order to know where to draw the line, which implies some knowledge about whats beyond the line to be able to draw it.

“Possibility” and “actuality” have different definitions, therefore, I say that they are not the same thing. What I was attempting to communicate before, is that the cognitive processes that I use to justify my belief that they aren’t the same cannot themselves be justified. Why are basic logical rules true? They appear true to my mind, I cannot think of ways to defy them, but I could be wrong. I cannot say that any logical principle is known conclusively because its justification is reliant upon our “rational” faculties.

Besides that the question youre asking is as meaningless as is your epistemology. The question is like asking how we can really know that a triangle (which is that which has three sides) is that which has three sides. Its like asking what came before the first one, what caused the uncaused, and wheres the bachelors wife? The problem is that the reason we know for sure a triangle has three sides is just by unpacking what the words means in terms of what it is..and since nothing comes before the first, an uncaused being has no cause because its self existent/self explanatory, and a bachelor doesnt have a wife, those questions are meaninglss and contradictory. They make no sense, because they confuse categories ask for and demand the opposite of what a thing is or can be to simulateously also be the thing it opposes.

The reason we know something self evident (clear in itself/self explanatory/self justifying) is because thats what it is and what it means. Self evident means that the predicate (description, or that which is predicated about something) is identical or reducible to its subject. When the predicate matches what its refferring to, then its true. If an statement about the abstract corresponds to the abstract thing its refefring to, then its true abstractly. If a statment about actual reality corresponds to the actual thing its reffering to, then its true actually. The reason we know triangles have three sides is because the predicate (..has three sides) is identical to its subject, the word tri-angle. Therefore in regards to actual reality, the reason we know something actually exists (like myself..the reason we know "I exist" is actually true) is because the predicate ("I"=myself who is or has being/actuality), is reducible to the actual I thats thinking, stating it, or denying it. The actually produced thought or statement necessarily implies an actually existing producer of the thought, or statement. This is known immediately while being in the actual experiential process of asking or denying whether "I"exist". The discover takes place concurrently with the asking or denying..not before (apriori) or after (a posteriori)..

It was standard since Kant to say that an analytic statement is one in which the predicate adds nothing to the subject that is not already contained within the subject. The question can be raised of what is meant by conceptual containment? A proposed solution is that they “mean” the same thing, independently of empirical fact. I notice this is recreated in your post. Frege showed that we cannot confuse meaning with reference. We cannot say, in other words, that words mean the same thing because they refer to the same thing. Frege’s examples were “morning star” and “evening star,” both of which have the same referent, but do not mean the same thing. Furthermore, meaning is distinct from extension. “Friedrich Nietzsche” and “the author of Beyond Good and Evil” refer to the same person, but do not mean the same thing. Because meaning is not reference(the two words refer to the same object), it is nebulous. Meaning is an insufficient justification of analycity. You might say that the a statement like the one you alluded to is analytic because its words share definitions. “All bachelors are unmarried.” The dictionary says that a bachelor is unmarried. However, the people who compile dictionaries use preexisting synonyms; the dictionary cannot explain synonymy. You cannot justify synonymy by appealing to definitions which presuppose synonymy. Another attempt to salvage analycity is to appeal to salva veritate interchangeability. That is the ability to change words without altering truth value. However, “bachelor” and “unmarried man” are not interchangeable salva veritate. I give you the sentence “’Bachelor’ contains fewer than 9 letters.’” Clearly, the truth value of the statement changes if you substitute “unmarried man.” Furthermore, interchangeability is relative to a particular language. If the language is extensional(it lacks modal operators), then obviously non-synonymous forms can be substituted without altering truth value. Language with modal operators, such as “necessarily” presupposes analycity because only analytic statements are considered necessary. When one really begins to dig at explaining the analytic/synthetic distinction, it becomes muddled and not nearly as intelligible as the, frankly, antiquated analysis you have presented.

*** I was giving this a quick once over to check for typos and I noticed that you kept referring to the "question" I'm asking. However, I note that there are no questions in the passage you have quoted. I realize what you mean is obvious to you, but this has become a fairly complex discussion and you must be very clear or it will become impenetrable. I have tried to do this, hopefully, I have succeeded, but if you do not understand, do ask for clarification.

While I cant know if you exist with the same kind of certainty (self evidence and actual undeniabillity) I can know I actually do exist, for I must actually exist to deny I exist. Since every denial implies an actually existing producer of the denial, and this is shown while producing the denial, that "I /somthing exists" is true, the reason we know this with actual necessity is because its actually inescapable/undeniable. You cant deny its truth without necessarily affirming its truth in the process of denying it. While one can logically concieve in the mind, oneself not existing, in that its not a logically airtight argument, it is nevertheless self evident (actually and necessarily true) as well as actually undeniable.

Major premise: I think
Minor premise(unstated): Only things which exist think
Conclusion: I exist.

I have expressed the unstated premise in the enthymeme for clarity’s sake. This is a syllogism. It is fallible because logical principles rest upon our cognitive processes, and it would be terribly difficult to justify them without employing them. Ultimately, logical rules or general laws of thought depend on us for justification.

What youre asking me is how I know (how I can show in a self evident, inescapable, and actually necessary way I can know for sure) that its true that self evident truth is a reality. Your question implies the reality of self evident and undeniabillity applies to reality, for its the very criteria youre implying in your very question about it.

Not so. I have not implied that self-evident propositions are infallible. That I ask about something does not imply that it is a reality. If I asked you to prove that there are square circles, certainly you would not say that I imply their reality!

If youre not asking me for a real solid self justifying satisfactory answer, then you cant rule out the possibility of knowing actually necessary truth about reality..since that is the case, you cant meaningfully affirm that NO statement is conclusive about reality..thus you must reject your view inorder to be consistent, meaningfully, and reasonable/rational

I have no idea what this means. Attempting to respond would be futile. If you wish to clarify or another poster finds it comprehensible, please let me know.

Besides youre only assuming EVERYTHING must have a cause (the contradictory principle of sufficient reason), yet what is uncaused, what is self evident, self explaining doesnt need one. Every house needs a foundation and only what comes to be, what changes, what could cease being needs a cause..if something doesnt come to be, but is eternal and uncaused, is unchanging, and cannot cease to be, it doesnt need a cause let alone need to find an explanation for its existence found in something else...rather the self explained, is just that, self explaining. The reason why it is self explaining and self evident is because thats the kid of thing it is. Why do you blindly assume that everything needs a cause? Wouldnt that imply the opposite of the false humility that comes about your epistemology, that one infinitely witholds judgment from everything..when in reality it assumes to know everything, to be able to know for sure, before experience, needs a cause..Whyd you assume that is true? All youre doing is showing that omniscience does exist, what is unchanging, infinite, and absolute does exist..but just showing also that its not you..because omniscience wouldnt make a self negating argument.

I am not saying that everything needs to have a cause. I am saying that a theory of knowledge needs a knower. To whom is a self-evident proposition self-evident? You have misunderstood the concept of “self-evidence.” It means that the statement requires no further justification, that understanding it is sufficient to affirm it. It does not mean that it is literally evident to itself; i.e., the proposition contemplates itself. It is self-evident to someone.
Thast another wrong question. WHO judges it such? The point is that it is self justifying even if many or none of us understand it or wants to. Reality doesnt ask us permission to be. One cant ask you your permission if you would like to start existing, before you start existing...you dont usually get asked if its ok for a cop to pull you over, and most of the time people dont get asked if its ok that you die someday. Reality is that which is, and we dont determine it, rather we discover it based on principles..we not only can and do do this, but we also live our lives that way, and cant meaningfully think, state, or deny it to the contrary. YOu can by my guest to say nahh ahh all day long..but while you can deny what is self evident all day, while you can state its not true formally, you cannot meaningfully deny it without implying its true in the process of the denial.

You are somehow confusing my epistemological remarks with metaphysics. I am not saying that “reality asks my permission to be.” I am saying that a self-evident proposition needs someone to consider it self-evident for it to be so. A self-evident proposition is known through understanding it. Something is not known without a knower.

Is it self evident, and sure that it is "NO solution"?? How would you know for sure its "NO solution" with such certainty and conclusiveness as to rule out even the possibility for something to be sellf evident, if self evidence is not true or real? The fact that you rule it out in certain terms, shows you know self evidence and necessity does apply to reality..for youre ruling out in a necessary way self evidence as applicable to reality..which is to prove that necessity/self evidece does apply to actual reality.

Why do you assume that when I say "self-evidence is no solution" that I mean that this statement is infallible? That would conflict directly with the tenets I have laid out in this thread. This reminds me very much of a conversation in which I say "ice cream is good" to which someone says "that's just your opinion." I do not mean the the situation is identical, merely similar. Of course, it's my opinion; and, of course, when I say "self-evidence is no solution" it is a fallible statement. That should be stunningly clear from the bulk of the discussion in this thread. It would be appreciated if you laid off the "a-ha! gotcha!" remarks like the one above.

Interesting that you say that when just before you stated that you said "Self-evidence is no solution". How could you know for sure with absolute certainty, in a self evident/actually necessary way that self evidence/actual necessity doesnt apply to reality? The second you say that you imply self evidence/necessity applies to reality and the second you soften the "NO solution" to a "fallible" "weakend" view that states it "could be/is possibly a solution" you must then admit the possibility it could be, and thus be open to seeing the "evidence" for actual necessity.

I have made that admission before. I dare say I have made it multiple times, yet you continually take us in a circle by bringing it up again. I am at a loss.

I put evidence in quotes because its not evidence in the way you understand it..as something being made evident by another thing..rather if one is open to just understad what is being stated, by understadning the terms being used, it can be shown that what is being stated is clear in itself, where one needs not go even beyond the statment to know its true as immediately knowable though experience and intuition.

A self-evident proposition requires someone to contemplate it and understand it. Nothing is known without someone to know it. It is putatively known without additional proof by someone.

I also dont understand what youre reffering this to.

The simplest way to tell you is that I was asking what “it” referred to, specifically, in the sentence I quoted.

Ill see if I can figure out what youre saying..but if what youre saying is true..how could I or anyone ever really even know that much? Youre epistemology would make even dialogue impossible..yet we are dialoging though hmm?

It would not make dialoging impossible.


P.S. I hope that others have gained something from discussion because it is becoming clear that there will be no agreement reached.

P.P.S. There is too much repetition in this discussion.
 
Demiurge said:
it is becoming clear that there will be no agreement reached.

That much is determined
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