Ghosts

[Lee_B]

I was very much a skeptic until a couple of years ago.

I was staying at Julie's Grandfather's summerhouse. He died a few years ago and she inherited the place. It's got no electric or running water and is miles from anywhere as all the surrounding land is a vineyard for the wine he used to produce. Anyway, it's pretty spooky from the outset, especially at night when all you have is candles and total silence around you. Definitely a touch of the "Blair Witch" going on.

One night, we'd had a cook-out and a few beers and went to the upstairs bedroom to sleep. It was then that Julie decided it was a good time to tell me about all the weird stuff that had happened there in the past. Like doors flying open for no reason, door handles being rattled, moaning sounds, etc. I took it all with a pinch of salt and tried to get to sleep.

Ten minutes later and a bit drowsy I was woken by a loud bang on the door... I damn near shit my pants, but trying to a hero I went to take a look. Needless to say there was nothing there and I went back to bed. I confinved myself it was a bird or a bat flying into the door (the entrance to the room is up some stairs on the outside of the place). About three minutes after that I could hear well defined footsteps upstairs. Slow and then fast like running. Unfortunately the "upstairs" was the roof (the bedroom's in the attic space) and there's no way anyone could possibly get up there.

Fucking weird. I have no explaination as to what that could have been, and there's no way I'm staying there again!

 

[JayKeeley]

I wonder if you would have experienced all this had she not told you bedtime stories? It's like she planted a seed. I also think that when it's late at night, if you really listen out for things, you'll hear lots of 'activity', especially after a couple of beers.

My house is really loud at night -- floorboards creaking back into position, boiler coming on and off, birds flapping about on my air conditioners, squirrels on the roof, and even bats flapping at my attic windows. (We had one bat manage to get in once). I sleep through it because I'm used to it, but if somebody came to stay here for the first time, they'd probably think it sounds like downtown traffic.

 

[Erik]

Well. I gotta say, I don't believe in this stuff 'cause I've never had any experiences of the sort, but really... If someone hears "well-defined footsteps on the stairs" that's a bit different than squirrels on the roof.

 

[JayKeeley]

Either way, easily explained I'm sure.

And why is it that 'ghosts' have the ability to produce "well-defined footsteps" in another part of the house but not come in the room and stand before you?

I have this same problem with the concept of a higher power. Either show yourself or fuck off.

 

[Erik]

Meh, I dunno. I've sorta-kinda come to the point where it feels slightly arrogant to think I can say with any sort of certainty whether shit does or doesn't exist. Whether it is worthwhile to care is another thing

 

[JayKeeley]

It's really just about being content with the decision you've made. That's kinda where I was getting at earlier on -- the idea of being ambivalent about things in life is SUCH A WASTE OF ENERGY. In my opinion, you either believe in something or you don't -- pick one, and remove any question marks above your head.

Even if you don't know the true answer either way, at least you've settled on a decision. It's 50/50 odds anyway.

This applies to religion and religous people too - you're either a devout follower, or not. I don't get this "pick and choose" rubbish. That's where religion fails, simply because people don't abide by its rules implicitly. Well, that and the contradictions contained within, but still...

 

[Erik]

I really don't see why people have to have an opinion on everything, give it a fucking rest and accept you're a dumb human with a brain incapable of comprehending and analyzing all things. I see it as pure arrogance most of the time... If it's important for your peace of mind to settle for one viewpoint, then fine, but I'm not generally going to have strong opinions about shit I couldn't possibly know if it's right or wrong.

 

[Henrik Main]

Erik pretty much summed up my thoughts on this subject.

Atheists and people who "KNOW" that ghosts and the likes don't exist irritate me a bit. Noone can prove that God/ghosts exist. However, noone can prove that they DON'T exist either. That's pretty much all I have to add.

 

[JayKeeley]

I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time." - Isaac Asimov.

I can't believe how pefect that Isaac Asimov quote is.

Believe in God? Great, go for it, knock yourself out. Don't believe in him? Fine, you made a choice. Being 'agnostic' about it?

That's like roulette players who put one chip on red and one chip on black and continuously win one and lose one all night long; or those swing voters deciding between Kerry or Bush. Pick one until you are at least 51% sure enough to make a choice. Either way, pick one. Sure there is 49% margin for error, but you made the decision.

 

[Erik]

Note difference between "believe" and "being sure to the point where one considers every dissenting opinion absolutely null and void beyond discussion"

Sure, I believe the Jewish god doesn't exist, but agnosticism simply states that there is no way to know, which I agree with. It is PER DEFINITION impossible to know about something which supposedly transcends humanity to such a degree.

 

[JayKeeley]

Sure, I believe the Jewish god doesn't exist, but agnosticism simply states that there is no way to know, which I agree with. It is PER DEFINITION impossible to know about something which supposedly transcends humanity to such a degree.

Yes, with that I agree, but I speak more about being assertive enough in your personal life to make the end choices.

I think there are some people that fear the unknown ("is there a heaven or not"?) and therefore choose to be agnostic just to cover both bases.

Also, to me, between a "yes", "no", or "I don't know" answer, I would say the latter two are practically one and the same thing. I just accept that if I'm not sure about something, it's probably because it's not real. I therefore go with the statistics of probability and move on in life. Otherwise I would be both religous and a believer of the loch ness monster.

 

[spaffe]

If you believe in ghosts, your God/Jesus bashing rights are null and void.

Care to elaborate on that contradiction?

Perhaps my opinions aren't what you're refering to, but I belive ghosts exist and I also belive that the jewish/christian doctrine about a personal god, heaven, hell, salvation, sin, pennance etc etc is untrue and/or bollocks.



(I wont be able to reply for some time though, since I haven't got a computer at home atm)

 

[IOfTheStorm]

I had this astral projection thing sometimes..also:
Sometimes through my life, when i went to bed, a little before i sleep i has this feeling where i cant move my body at all, neither my arms or feet..and i opened my eyes and i saw a black figure (something like a Nazgul) looking at me. I couldnt see any eyes, but i was sure it was looking at me. I could open my mouth and TRIED to scream, but i couldnt, there was no voice coming out. I was closing my eyes, and 1-2 minutes later, the shape was gone, my move was back to normal, and so was my voice. This mainly happens at summertime. Last summer i had the most intense experience of it: it lasted longer and the shape just didnt leave... then i closed my eyes and said the "oh father who is in heaven.. etc" thing prayer (yes go ahead laugh, but thats what a friend told me, because he had this experience too, others had it too, and he was sure its a demon), and i felt it (the shape) moving, and i was almost sure that it flew over me and gone. There you go

Also some years ago, i was in a small suburb of Chania in Crete ,and i was sitting in the balcony with a friend, it was quite late and yes we were totally sober. We were just talking and then looked at a guy 20 meters away from us. We could see him coming from longer distance...but he was just there like he suddenly appeared. He was dressed badly like a trash collector .. or something. He asked us "to which way is the city?" we replied, he said "thank you" and he just stood there. For a sec we looked at each other (me and my friend) and then he wasnt there. Just dissapeared in the way he appearead. Yea thats it too.

 

[Henrik Main]

Cool stories, IOfTheStorm. Thanks for sharing.

I think it's silly to claim that stories like the ones in this thread HAVE to have a natural explanation - I think there are a lot of things in this world that can't be explained scientifically. Once, a friend of mine told me and a few other friends about a special experience he'd had - he'd seen something/someone in his house, and he was sure that it was a ghost. My other friend's reaction was: "This is pure bullshit, ghosts don't exist, there's no way this is true, you're making stuff up," etc. Now, one can ask why he reacted like this? I think it was because of fear. He doesn't want ghosts to exist, simply because he finds ghosts and things that can't be explained scary. I think many of the "non-believers" actually are afraid of such inexplicable things.

 

[JayKeeley]

I think there are a lot of things in this world that can't be explained scientifically.

Yet.

It's just a matter of time...

 

[Krilons Resa]

I had this astral projection thing sometimes..also:
Sometimes through my life, when i went to bed, a little before i sleep i has this feeling where i cant move my body at all, neither my arms or feet..and i opened my eyes and i saw a black figure (something like a Nazgul) looking at me. I couldnt see any eyes, but i was sure it was looking at me. I could open my mouth and TRIED to scream, but i couldnt, there was no voice coming out. I was closing my eyes, and 1-2 minutes later, the shape was gone, my move was back to normal, and so was my voice. This mainly happens at summertime. Last summer i had the most intense experience of it: it lasted longer and the shape just didnt leave... then i closed my eyes and said the "oh father who is in heaven.. etc" thing prayer (yes go ahead laugh, but thats what a friend told me, because he had this experience too, others had it too, and he was sure its a demon), and i felt it (the shape) moving, and i was almost sure that it flew over me and gone. There you go

Have you ever read up on Sleep Paralysis? I have never, personally, experienced it but it sounds a lot like it.

The other story though...

 

[IOfTheStorm]

Yes i know about it.. and thats the explanation for all others who had this experience, and our question is, the sleep paralysis makes you see a black shape too?

 

[Krilons Resa]

Yes i know about it.. and thats the explanation for all others who had this experience, and our question is, the sleep paralysis makes you see a black shape too?

That's true. I have no experiences with it nor have read enough about the subject in question to confidently answer it. Maybe some kind of brain synapse firing? Who knows...weird either way!

I want to have an experience like the second of your experiences. Nothing beats real experience. Until them, I am an optimistic skeptic.

 

[JayKeeley]

If you believe in ghosts, your God/Jesus bashing rights are null and void.

Care to elaborate on that contradiction?

I belive ghosts exist and I also belive that the jewish/christian doctrine about a personal god, heaven, hell, salvation, sin, pennance etc etc is untrue and/or bollocks.

Personally, I cannot wait to see J's response to this.

 

[IOfTheStorm]

Well im not J but since you believe in ghosts, meaning that you accept PARAnormal activities AND afterlife, you cant justify your certainty that God and heaven or hell doesnt exist.