Gigging: Any point these days?

drew_drummer

Dancefap
Sep 7, 2008
6,473
3
38
London, UK
Interesting conversation with our sometime vocalist last night; over many many beers, so it could all be bullshit. But the jist of his logic was that unless you're playing to people who actively want to see you, then there is just no point in slogging your guts out to do mini 4 days tours, or trying to get in with your local pub venues. His notion - aim higher than that, don't play that many gigs, and only play worthwhile ones.

Easier said than done.

To him, music has fundamentally changed. No-one is interested in live music anymore, even the most ardent music fan doesn't go out exploring live music - they do it all from their iPhones and comfy chairs or whatever.

I look at some bands we've played with - not mentioning names, but these bands all tour heftily, even going as far as to move countries every year or two... and they're basically no higher than we are on the ladder, so to speak. They have no money, no legacy, and have destroyed their bodies and minds.

Is it even fucking worth it anymore? What do you guys think?
 
I completely agree with that vocal.. the local underground music is dying day by day (i dont have idea's on other countries)
When i used to gig with my band back in 06 there were more than 2000 crowds.. and its getting less day by day.
Normally we have around 10-15 bands in a gig... sometimes it reaches 30 lol :P
the bands who are engaged in releasing more of their music seems to catch everyone's eyes...than the bands who are performing 15 gigs a month...
i used to gig a lot.. like a crazy MF ....now i play only the good gigs..
 
I agree with your singer, which is why I only play around 30 shows a year. Then again, I'm in a genre that is so niche/small that even the biggest bands only sell 20000 CDs and pull 1000-2000 people to their gigs.

The strength of a band comes from their songs, image and general "message". It helps if they are a great live band but as you said: most people check out bands on Facebook first before leaving their house to go to the show. If I was a new band, I'd do it like this:

a) start your own label
b) release a song for download every 2 month that includes a decent quality music video. too lazy for that? can't afford to buy a Canon DSLR? fuck you, stop making music.
c) play a local basement/club show every month for a year just to figure out what works or not. start saving 100 bucks a month from all band members combined for the band fund. Can't afford 100 bucks a month? fuck you, get a 2nd job or stop making music.
d) after 2 years release a CD (yes, physical, so you have something to sell at merch) and buy ad space in the 2 main magazines for your genre. with that you get interviews and reviews automatically. That's where some of the band fund money comes in! Didn't start a band fund? Stop making music.
e) keep playing shows but try to reach out to regional promoters for support slots, play those for free, behave well and make everyone's life easy. This all assumes that your image/photos/graphics make sense and look good. Don't have an image/photos/graphics that look good? Get some. Don't go the cheapest route.
f) 6 months after the CD release start releasing single songs every 2-3 months again.
g) use the money that you have in your band fund to buy on to a tour of a bigger band that draws 200-500 people a night. Make sure it's the right genre. Play hard, make friends, connect to their bookers.
h) get more interviews/press after that tour, because you are now on the radar of bands that can actually be taken seriously
j) release the short 5 minute tour video that you shot all throughout the tour. make it look as cool as possible.
k) go back to f and keep playing a show per month to hone your skills
l) reach out to booking agencies to see if you can find some representation. if that fails buy on to a tour of a band that draws 300-800 people a night.
m) go back to f and keep play a show per month to hone your skills
n) if at this point you have problems securing a booker who can get you on to some bigger festivals, then you have a fundamental problem

I know bands even in my genre who tour relentlessly, lose money and still open for me despite having the looks and good songs, so touring is not necessarily what it used to be. If you can play 10 good shows in good packages a year, plus 2-3 large festivals, you are much better off than playing 50-70 shitty bars.

EDIT: even if you are in a rock band - write a song that is club material. Then find the 50 biggest rock clubs in your country, look up their websites, contact the DJs and ask them if they would give you feedback on your song. DJs love that because it validates them. If your tune is good you'll get played. If it gets played you reach A LOT more people.
 
No-one is interested in live music anymore, even the most ardent music fan doesn't go out exploring live music - they do it all from their iPhones and comfy chairs or whatever.

Humans in 100 years will look like this:

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We play about 20 gigs a year and that's pushing it :p 2 gigs a month that are good guarantees shows otherwise, nope... It's just a massive hassle to go to god knows where to play to 20-30 people!
 
a) start your own label

Haven't done this in any official capacity, but we basically do everything ourselves. I did mention that we should have some sort of umbrella label company, but it didn't hold much sway.

b) release a song for download every 2 month that includes a decent quality music video. too lazy for that? can't afford to buy a Canon DSLR? fuck you, stop making music.

Yeah this could be a good way to do it. We've released two albums and a few bonus tracks before, but it's not been a consistent thing.

c) play a local basement/club show every month for a year just to figure out what works or not. start saving 100 bucks a month from all band members combined for the band fund. Can't afford 100 bucks a month? fuck you, get a 2nd job or stop making music.

Been there done that. Still do the odd show every now and then in a local capacity.

d) after 2 years release a CD (yes, physical, so you have something to sell at merch) and buy ad space in the 2 main magazines for your genre. with that you get interviews and reviews automatically. That's where some of the band fund money comes in! Didn't start a band fund? Stop making music.

Got two albums out there, both were well received. Haven't bought any ad space in magazines before - wasn't sure it was worth it to be honest. How popular are magazines these days?

e) keep playing shows but try to reach out to regional promoters for support slots, play those for free, behave well and make everyone's life easy. This all assumes that your image/photos/graphics make sense and look good. Don't have an image/photos/graphics that look good? Get some. Don't go the cheapest route.

Done all that too. That was how we got the Pelican support slot last April - fucking great show. Everything has been completely shit since then though, due to losing our bassist.

f) 6 months after the CD release start releasing single songs every 2-3 months again.

From the CD, or new material you mean?

g) use the money that you have in your band fund to buy on to a tour of a bigger band that draws 200-500 people a night. Make sure it's the right genre. Play hard, make friends, connect to their bookers.

This we haven't done. No idea how to even approach something like this.

h) get more interviews/press after that tour, because you are now on the radar of bands that can actually be taken seriously

Okay...

j) release the short 5 minute tour video that you shot all throughout the tour. make it look as cool as possible.

Done stuff like this before. The people that see it enjoy it, but not many people see it.

k) go back to f and keep playing a show per month to hone your skills

Right.

l) reach out to booking agencies to see if you can find some representation. if that fails buy on to a tour of a band that draws 300-800 people a night.

I have tried to get in touch with booking agencies. Quite a lot of them wont even respond if you're not on a label, or already a sure thing for them.

m) go back to f and keep play a show per month to hone your skills

Riiight..

n) if at this point you have problems securing a booker who can get you on to some bigger festivals, then you have a fundamental problem

Yeah, see where you're coming from. The thing is... we're not a shit band. I have a lot of confidence and intuition that people like us, and that we put on a good live show. We're not the most spastic band ever, but we generate an atmosphere. Judging by Youtube views, one of our songs has over 4000 views, we're always getting comments and likes and attention on Facebook and elsewhere, and people are saying to us to put a gig on in their area... so I know that there are people out there who dig us.

Problem is it is places like Boston and California and Denmark - all over the shop. We don't have a consistent and concentrated UK fanbase, we're too "international" for want of a better word. So I know that is a problem.

The name is a barrier for a lot of people, but we've built up the name over the last four/five years, and I quite like it myself!!

Our drummer has been putting together 4 dates here in the UK, and our ex-vocalist basically said they weren't worth doing, and now I feel really fucking depressed.

*sigh*
 
In the past gigs were the advertising for the product ie the music; now fundamentally this has turned round to the product being the advertisement for the gigs. If you don't have people who are interested in your music and who are willing to come out to see you play on the basis of liking your shit then you're already wasting your time. If you don't have an active following then there is no point in trying to accumulate a fanbase on the basis of live performance - because you will maybe get one or two people who will like your band from that but it's a pyrrhic victory for all the time, sweat, effort and politcs you have to wade through to get there - and there is a fuckload of that.

In big towns 'local band' gigs are a dime a dozen, why should anyone come out to see you when they can see any other half dozen sweaty mongoloids on a given week night? That question should have already been and gone by the time you get there on the basis of your recorded worth.

At any rate I agree with your singer, playing half dead gigs routinely is a way to total burnout; physically and mentally.
 
drew: every band thinks that they are not a shit band and that people like them because they get feedback from the web, but even if it's true that just makes you one of 1000000 bands. Also although it may seem like much to you, but 4000 views is very very little. I get frustrated that my main video for the last album hasnt done more than a bit over 100000 views yet, but I have to be critical of myself and say that despite the video being really well received, the track is probably just not good enough. My biggest track has 1.2 million views and even that is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

A friend of mine (big promo guy in Germany) said to me 7 years ago when he listened to my old metal band: "You guys are really good. But you are from Hamburg, Germany making music that other bands with a million tattoos who come from NYC or LA are making. Why should anyone care about you guys when the others are already on a label, have the street-cred and the same sound. Nobody needs you!". And he's right. The only people who care about a band are the people in the band. Unless you are special and "get out there".

I could tell you a lot of things about your band that explain why you are struggling, but judging from your reaction to some of my older posts, I'd say it would only offend you.

To everyone: the myth that print magazines are dead is wrong. Print magazines/real radio/real tv are still the most important opinion-forming devices when it comes to new acts. When everyone and their brother have a band and a FB page and a decent video shot on 5Dmk2, the magazines and tv shows along with support slots on big tours are what push you into people's faces. An article in a bigger mag (like Metal Hammer etc.) says "This band is worth checking out!" and a lot of people read their mags from front to back over the course of a month because they put it on the toilet to read while taking a shit (I'm not kidding). Mags/radio/tv legitimize your band as a real player. Even if it means you bought the press via ads.
 
It's not that I can't take criticism or advice dude, it's that some of your previous posts have been less than constructive. The one you made here was constructive, which is why I responded fairly amicably (for me at least!)

I get what you're saying regarding video views; but bear in mind all the facts. We're not signed, it isn't our official Youtube channel (just a fan) and we've not pushed it at all. 4000 views isn't something to be sniffed at I don't think. Is it world dominating? Fuck no. But is it indicative of nobody liking the band (could be any band), I don't think it is.

If you've got some words or thoughts, I'm open to hearing them. You've obviously done well yourself, but I imagine you have a lot more resources than just four guys from North London!

We don't struggle with the music at all. It *is* good music. We struggle with getting representation - we don't really fit into the current mould of djent-djent-djent with some ambient guitars over the top, so I think that explains to some degree why no-one returns emails. We're just not their kind of thing.
 
To everyone: the myth that print magazines are dead is wrong. Print magazines/real radio/real tv are still the most important opinion-forming devices when it comes to new acts. When everyone and their brother have a band and a FB page and a decent video shot on 5Dmk2, the magazines and tv shows along with support slots on big tours are what push you into people's faces. An article in a bigger mag (like Metal Hammer etc.) says "This band is worth checking out!" and a lot of people read their mags from front to back over the course of a month because they put it on the toilet to read while taking a shit (I'm not kidding). Mags/radio/tv legitimize your band as a real player. Even if it means you bought the press via ads.

I can definitely agree with this on some level - it's not like we've ignored the magazines, but I admit they've not been our focus. We've had write-ups+comments+reviews in Metal Hammer, Rocksound, Prog Rock, and a few others... hard to tell whether they did much for us though.
 
I'm not sniffing at 4000 views, but on the other hand I don't think I've done well at all. And I don't think I had more resources than you guys. I'm on my own label that I run alone (with a little help from a friend).

Very often "good" music is not what you need. You need good music and something that people can relate to and remember.
 
drew: okay, here are my thoughts. This is purely from a marketing point-of-view, not from an artistic point of view. I've had feedback like this about a lot of bands in label a&r meetings (when I suggested a project or brought in a band), so it's not me trying to be an ass.

1) your website is bandcamp - get a proper website. Wordpress is your friend. You can keep bandcamp but incorporate it into the homepage. My keyboardist's own band did that really well: http://www.xp8.org/
2) the bandname is a problem, I can barely pronounce it and I'm a native speaker of the English language. Good/simple/clever/well-sounding names are worth their weight in gold. Since it apparently has come up before: change it. It's not like you've already build a massive fanbase under the name. Those fans that are actually following you can be easily alerted to the name change via FB or the newsletter.
3) I listened to the first song on your bandcamp page "Fractal World". It doesn't have vocals. At that point I assumed you are an instrumental band. At that point I stopped caring (like 99,9% of the world).
4) I then listened to the second song "Exegis". Yay! Vocals! They don't sound too good in the beginning (just the timbre of the voice) but I kept listening only to be dragged through 3-4 more minutes without a vocal hook/catchy chorus. At that point I stopped the song (99,9% of the world would have stopped MUCH earlier).
5) I then listened to the third song "Calligraphy" and it is another instrumental. At that point I decided to not listen to other songs anymore.
6) If you don't have vocals, you'll never have an audience these days.
7) You label yourself "art-metal london metal post-metal post-rock ambient instrumental progressive progressive metal" - lose the metal. Your music is extremely un-metal when most people these days assume that metal is something like Machine Head, Periphery, Rammstein or heavier. Call your self "art rock, indie-prog, post rock". It's much closer to what I heard. The majority of metal fans and metal journalists won't have the patience for your stuff.
8) You don't have an image. The bandname says nothing about the band. The band pictures are medium-quality (which isn't enough these days) and show dudes standing around in settings that (at first glance) don't tell me anything about the band. The band look is inconsistent. All in all the band pictures don't make me want to check out the music and they don't transport a vibe or a "message". Invest in a good photographer and a stylist. The guy with the black clothes and the lack of hair might want to wear a hat/cap/beanie next time.
9) Aside from the bandname or pictures: what is the interesting part about your band and your music? Can you tell me in one sentence what your music sounds like? I always say "Faderhead sounds like The Incredible Hulk is fucking Paris Hilton ... it's kinda like a mixture of Daft Punk and Rammstein". Nothing on your website/facebook etc. gives me a hint to what your image could be. You gotta find something. Otherwise you'll just be another band and the person you met in the club who was interested in your band for a second now can't remember anything but "ah, it's something about a bridge".
10) I'm aware of the fact that you are not going for a poppy, mainstream sound or audience, but even your audience has "a style". Find it, adapt your look to it or invent your own style and force it on the audience. Anything is better than "no style". I just looked at the website and pictures of Tool (who your music reminded me of) and obviously got shamed because their site looks like shit and the recent band pics are just them bullshitting in ridiculous settings, but they are huge now, so they don't need to care. However, when they started out, Tool were "the band with the awesome stop-motion videos, omg, they are rad!". So they had a clear image.
11) Write 2 songs that are 3-4 minutes long. Have the vocals start after 20 seconds and the first chorus after 50 seconds. Yea, I know that your songs are all long, but nobody who has never heard of a band wants to sit through 3 minutes of intro. If you place these shorter songs in the web player at #1 and #2 you might convince the listener that your 10 minute instrumentals are worth listening to. Although I doubt it, cause people just don't like instrumentals.
12) Stop writing instrumentals. People don't have the attention span or the interest. Your singer doesn't sound bad. He doesn't sound great either but if you produce it properly, it can work really well. Trust me, I know, I'm a crappy singer! If you write long songs with few vocals, you'll simply have to keep playing tiny gigs just for the fun of playing the music you love.
13) Write lyrics about things that people actually care about: love, fear, life, anger, happiness, dancing. Don't write Dream Theater lyrics about "shadow's passing on the liquid wall" - which people can't relate to.
14) Go associate online with acts that attract the clientele that listens to your music. Find fans of bands like Tool or weirder acts like Nick Cave or Einstürzende Neubauten. Their audience often doesn't like mainstream music, maybe they can latch on to your style. You are definitely wrong associating with metal acts.

That's what I saw at first regarding the basics. If I'm perfectly honest, from your web-presence it doesn't even appear like you are an active band. And if I think like that promoters/booking agency/labels will think the same because they are only interested in bands that can generate them money. Or they are well-meaning enthusiasts who run labels that can't really help you.
 
Hmm. I'm a bit too drunk right now, it is Saturday night after all. So I will give this a read tomorrow when I'm sober. But on the face of it, I think you're just one guy, and I'm not really sure how much of your feedback is valid or not. I mean dude, Pelican are fucking mahoosive, as are Godspeed You Black Emperor - not a lyric between them. Lack of vocals is not the bane of bands like it was in the 80's - I think you're a little out of touch there dude. Even Periphery... you look at how Misha got his stuff off the ground - it was all instrumental, and it was lauded all over the internet. Many many many people have since said they dislike the vocals.

I honestly think you're dead wrong on this point. 99.9% of music that I personally listen to and enjoy is instrumental - and I'm not some freak of nature. It's a very popular genre.

Instrumental music is MASSIVE these days. It really is. If you can't see that, I'm just not sure we can really relate to each other on this. The whole "metal" thing is pretty difficult. There are so many sub-genres that it's almost a pointless label. But I agree with you we could refine our "tags" a little.

Also the word is "Exegesis" not "Exegis" - it means to critically evaluate a piece of text. The album is a concept album about the writing of Philip K. Dick, it isn't supposed to be an easily digestible "knuckleheaded" metal album. I appreciate some of your feedback though, and once I'm less wasted, I will try to think it through some more. Ultimately though, focusing on the point of the thread, live music... I guess I'm particularly London centric... but here it mostly is a waste of time. Was kind of curious to hear how it is in other countries.
 
Also, I'm the bald guy who wears black. Not sure what your problem is with my "image" though... :lol: I'm not into mohawks or any of that shit, and personally, anyone who listens to an artist just because they look "cool" - well... they can eat a dick. I don't need a mohawk! :lol:
 
Drew, honestly, I think smy is spot on on 90% of what he says, you should really listen to what he wrote up there without taking anything personally, he even states himself he has got this kind of mails from others before and I bet he did. I have a friend who is very "relatively" successful (in this gender and in france it means it's relatively small still) in the industrial/goth scene in france, and before his current formula could work he had to change a lot of things in his music and image, starting from his band name (from Symbiotic Stridulations to Systr, the logo, the image, the type of music from indus/goth to some kind of catchy-trancy indus with catchy choruses, the members, his own "label" which is now even his full time job). I don't know how much of this could apply to your music, but I get most of what he means. First being, yes, the name is not too attractive, to say the least. For the average joe, it's about some bridge, and for the ex-engineer I am, it just reminds me of my static and dynamic physics courses and my teacher's random story about this event which IMO is not glamorous enough to have a band named after it. Honestly, even though some bands made it with a strange name, they were usually lucky because a song broke through or something. Also, if you ask for advice on this forum, and reject advice from one of the very very few guys who can proudly say they live off their music, and have recognition, then I don't know what you need.

About Pelican, Tool, etc, yeah they write instrumental songs etc, but the thing is, how many average bands in their own style tried and failed ? Those are the one who, for some reason, succeeded at building their fanbase. Also, Pelican is a well known band in the gender, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are crazy "popular", this is still a niche market. I think it's safe to say by going this kind of instrumentals route you're facing what you are facing now. I myself love instrumentals and write music that is mostly based on that, and I know right away this is not the kind of material I would push towards gigging because I don't wanna struggle, and also because I have little time to waste. While that's what I would have done with my melodeath stuff with a friend if I didn't have these time consuming studies, and if some of my projects back then could have worked, I think it would have been this one, because we actually had some potentially catchy songs worth label-material, and also because with that mate (the same guy who is running his indus/goth band) we had the ability to say to each other after we wrote a new part in the song "this is shit" "this sounds like X band" "this will be boring" "this has been heard 100 times" "this is good it makes me wanna headbang" etc which I think is healthy if your goal is to target at people who don't have your own view which will inevitably be "my band is good". Look, I even said that for my own old melodeath project even though I have no factual proof it would have been good.

Misha is out of the equation, he is extremely talented, and started a trend (I don't particularly like his songs except a few ones, and I hate djent, but that's an objective and factual observation that this guy is a beast at what he does). Starting a trend is a different thing and it's difficult to plan for that. Vocals on his old songs suck yes but still, periphery has been surfing on the initial boost that was his rising popularity, again this is not the example of an average and generic band.

Sami's view is obviously more club-related but his points are good nonetheless to think about.

Listening to your music, I would say it's not too bad, I enjoyed Exegesis in a way, still I have never been surprised listening to your first 3 songs, in a way it doesn't propose anything new that would make me thing "damn my mp3 collection needs this band now" while this was the case when I listened to "the outsider" from A Perfect Circle for the very first time, or to "am kreuz" by AmenRa. Both of them are fucking catchy for different reasons, the second one would relate more to you since it's more of an ambiant instrumental style. But its climax is based on vocals, melodies, and epicness, eventhough it's repetitive.

For example, Calligraphy revolves around the very same notes from the beginning to the end, not a single note is off the original scale so it would need something more if that is the case, and it's not like the rythms are original or get me by surprise, or that an epic buildup is well created and exploited imo. Which is the case for most famous Tool songs. Even though I'm very sensitive to the gender, I only remember the 2nd one because of the vocals, yes. I stopped at song 4

Your singer is definitely worth it, like Sami said. I would just add a few more melodies in the lines, because I have been waiting for say 8 minuts in the song to hear something different than the same notes from the beginning, and an interaction with some new chords. I would personally have tried at some point to get by surprise the listener by hammering a definite and changing succession of chords, and some vocal lines to play with them, to set a point in the song that would be its anchor for the listener. When I listen to "ants of the sky" by Between the buried and me, it's by thinking of that awesome moment when the thing happens. When I listen to "Am Kreuz", it's right from the beginning with the intention of getting shivers when the chords get hammered and then again when the woman's voice sings these few lines that I can understand and sing along with, and that's coming from someone who puts little interest normally into lyrics, so imagine for someone who does, or for someone who doesn't have the same patience as me to listen for minutes to a song to get to a certain point.

This is just my 2c from the perspective of someone who doesn't run any music business seriously, so it's more from a consumer/listener-with-enlightement point of view

EDIT: if I answered the thread it's because Sami's answer was interesting, your case is interesting (not more than any other band's, but because you raised the question) and also because it makes me realize some mistakes I maybe made in my current songs
 
Wow. heh, I dont think I could beat LeSedna's post but here is what I think on the subject: Don't play live if you don't have fun doing it. When my last band was playing shows in our region we had a blast and made friends doing so. I think that's what should be important more than fame or money, especially since only the mainstream or the musicians with other entrepreneurial endeavors (such as audio engineering) make any kind of living off of it anyway. My 2 pennies.
 
I mean dude, Pelican are fucking mahoosive

They're really not though... I know its difficult to judge these things on arbitrary measures like Facebook likes or Youtube hits but as we seem to be doing that anyway I know bands with as many likes as Pelican where all the members are still living with their mothers trying to scrape a living from touring.

Tool are huge, granted, but they made headway in an era where it was the cool thing to not be the cool thing and their image reflects that - as does their general reclusiveness.

Sami is right on most of his points even if they do come from a particular perspective, (as do yours as well it must be noted - bands come to be fond of particular things because they are used to them - it happens all the time and its a mistake no one wants to admit to) your name is so long its hard to say in one breath and theres not a cohesiveness in your online presence - its probably a waste of time trying to change any of this though because bands being bands one person will be like "I like it the way it is" and nothing will ever happen because negotiation and trying to find common sense between 4-5 people is a fucking nightmare; there is a lot to be said in these situations for being a dictator.

Take from that what you will though - thats just my experience and it's not like I'm churning out hit records or anything near but I count a fair bit of experience of people I've worked with being in Alt Press, in adverts, radio, on the Beeb; that sort of shit and even under such small levels of notoriety it doesn't all work under the jurisdiction of whose the most talented - far from it, its usually who has the most apt thing to say at any given moment and who can express that concept the best or who is in with the right people.

LeSedna - I agree but just to change one thing - the word you are looking for is 'genre' (meaning a type of music) not 'gender' (meaning male or female etc). I don't mean to sound patronising or anything its just made me lose focus of your argument slightly even though it was very valid.