Health Care

[Volve]

Hahahaha
... or 4xlol

 

[monoxide_child]

How do we justify denying people treatment?

in America, the answer is money
the doctors in america make more money than anywhere else on earth (in proportion to the amount of money a random employed person makes) so the doctors here get greedy, doing the things that make themselves the most money even when (and quite frequently especially when) the doctor making the most money involves harming the patient, as in giving the patient unneccassarry pills/surgury because the Rx/surgery results in the doctor getting more money even though they weren't neccasary to begin with, that is a huge part of how fucked up the american med system is, also the insurance thing, the insurance company is what pays the american doctors (instead of the patient paying out of pocket) so, no insurance, no med treatment

 

[Einherjar86]

Doctors would be just as wealthy if we got rid of the insurance companies. The reason medical costs are so high is because the insurance companies charge a shitload for paperwork and the service they provide, because patients are going through them. If we instituted a system where patients pay doctors directly the costs would be less (because there would be less red tape), but the doctors would still make just as much money. Being a physician is a very prestigious position.

 

[Volve]

Stoping insurence would only harm the sick people, as they would not be able to pay for costly treatment. All the big hispitals in this country is owned by the state, and I'm glad they are. It means that I will only have to pay a low price for using them, and that price often has no connection to the real price. It's just symbolic.

But of couse I pay this service via my tax to the government. The fact that people that are not native here receive the same treatment can not affect me.

They can pay for theire service, I will have my service like now.

 

[monoxide_child]

Doctors would be just as wealthy if we got rid of the insurance companies. The reason medical costs are so high is because the insurance companies charge a shitload for paperwork and the service they provide, because patients are going through them. If we instituted a system where patients pay doctors directly the costs would be less (because there would be less red tape), but the doctors would still make just as much money. Being a physician is a very prestigious position.

if med insurance didn't exist at all, then random injured people would not be able to pay the med doctors enough to allow the med doctors to finish paying for med schooling, if med insurance stopped existing med doctors would make a lot less (spendable)money unless the cost of med school droped significantly

 

[Volve]

You want to go to med school?

 

[razoredge]

there are very few living that can pay for their medical attention, this and the capitalistic aspects is why "insurance" was developed. It would be a DEAD industry otherwise.

 

[monoxide_child]

You want to go to med school?

no

 

[Iron Bug]

I see ppl are paying too much attention to taxes. though, when they get in trouble, they change their mind in a moment, as a rule, huh.
the problem is faked humaneness (I specially use this word to part it from humanity). often ppl cannot calculate their risk and they aren't apt to answer for the consequencies of their deeds. while government plays democracy and humaneness soap opera to look nice. so they invented that insurance system that works on its own without any support from govt. and it also is a good source of money for many of them too.
of course nobody wants to see smashed basejumpers on a lawn in front of their cottage, huh. though, basejumpers themselves (I know some of them) don't care that much about health ensurance - because a failure in basejumping in 99.9% means death. I know ppl that jumped from Trolls mountains or however they call them, the place where basejumping is forbidden. all of them are alive, still. they're really crazy ppl. I'm far from parachute sport myself, but watching the videos they made while jumping there I could believe that was worth the efforts. everybody is to their taste - somebody likes to play golf, somebody likes to jump from rocks. but paying taxes for drugs users and obese pieces of ass makes me more indignant than basejumpers and motorbikers alltogether. in my country there's not exaggregated to sickness morals like in States, for instance, and I may call obese one a fat pig and that's not a crime. perhaps, it helps a way - because the hurt pride makes ppl make right conclusions and works out very effectively, better than any fat burners. we have much less overweighted ppl here. but government cares a lot to diminish the pride of individuals. pride means personality. government is the tool for suppressing personality (by definition). so, it's very convinient to them to make everybody equal. it's easier to keep submissive a herd of depersonalized ones. so, little tricks that make the illusion of rights and capabilities, are very useful. one of such tricks is the insurance. it makes ppl think they're on a safe side in some way and vote for the nice guys. that's all more global game than might seem ex facte. we often see only the top of the iceberg.
I personally prefer to avoid any social 'benefits' - also keeping out of the rest of it, too. this is not too bright way, sometimes, but at least I know what I do and what I pay for.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

Doctors would be just as wealthy if we got rid of the insurance companies. The reason medical costs are so high is because the insurance companies charge a shitload for paperwork and the service they provide, because patients are going through them. If we instituted a system where patients pay doctors directly the costs would be less (because there would be less red tape), but the doctors would still make just as much money. Being a physician is a very prestigious position.

That is the exact reasons many doctors are going right out of business. I have heard of practices employing four people, two of which only take care of paperwork between government and insurance.

Red tape dents the bottom line, and gets shifted to the customer as additional cost, diminishing their ability to pay. Meanwhile, according to Friedman, the American Medical Association acts a government-sanctioned guild and limits the supply of physicians on the market, thus the high costs emerging on account of scarcity.

Do not blame the free market for government intervention, which invariably causes trouble. If that perfidious mulatto is elected, the quality of service shall disintegrate to Britain, where patients languish in ambulances for hours before admission so that the hospital will not be penalized!

Fair is fair - I pay my way, you pay yours, and if one of us can't, too bad, that is life.

 

[Blowtus]

Without government regulation of qualifications / quality, the average consumertard opts for the cheapest / best marketed option, forcing corners to be cut and leaving no reasonable option for those wanting a decent quality service - as the providers of such do not successfully compete.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

Without government regulation of qualifications / quality, the average consumertard opts for the cheapest / best marketed option, forcing corners to be cut and leaving no reasonable option for those wanting a decent quality service - as the providers of such do not successfully compete.

So Big Brother makes their medical choices for them by proxy, or do we let him chose their clothes too?

If they chose it, it's on them, it's their body, it's their choice, and it is to their benefit or injury that they chose it. Thus, it is their problem and none other what in the devil they do because - simply put - it's their business. People make dumb choices all the time, but it is not the role of the state - or anything else - to prevent it provided it does not infringe upon the property rights of others in which case it is a matter for civil courts.

As for a market - clumsy or otherwise poorly-performing doctors go out of business thanks to litigation from malpractice. Yes, wealthy people pay for better or higher-quality care, but that is capitalism: a demand for services exists, and is filled by the free market through entrepreneurs, in this case some damn good doctors. They are under no obligation to provide those services to you at any price, but they will at a price commensurate with supply and demand.

On that note, my father is going to Duke to get some shit done with his prostate, and he's paying out the ass. Thankfully, we use the same tax shelter so it's all good.

 

[Blowtus]

You missed my point - I'm not concerned about the consumertards, I'm concerned about the availability of competent doctors in a society with no governmental regulation over who can call themselves a doctor, and how they can practice. Why bother with med school when you can just stick a sign up and start hacking?

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

To that I reply we should let the market be the final arbiter. Government needs no monopoly over accreditation of doctors, numerous private agencies, in exchange for a fee, allow the doctor to claim certification by said organization. Those that claim false certification may be prosecuted for fraud. Organizations that offer accreditation without doing due diligence will have their name soiled and, of course, their accreditation has no force.

Furthermore, those that provide malpractice insurance need to ensure those that they ensure are crème de la crème, otherwise they will invariably lose money, so naturally whichever certifications they chose to honour will likely act as the 'gold standard'. This way, if one accreditatior becomes corrupt, the insurer, through sheer profit motive, will sniff this out and act accordingly.

In addition, patients themselves may act as final arbiter in their capacity as actors in the free market, not only by rating their physician or surgeon, but by choosing whether to patronize him again in the future. In addition, they may check to make sure the doctor has malpractice insurance and has acted honestly in the past i.e. do due diligence. Thus, the good remain in business and the bad get weeded out.

Freedom granted only when it is known beforehand that its effects will be beneficial is not freedom. -Friedrich von Hayek

 

[monoxide_child]

there are very few living that can pay for their medical attention, this and the capitalistic aspects is why "insurance" was developed. It would be a DEAD industry otherwise.

the only way a random person would be able to afford med care without med insurance would be if someone put a cap on how much med doctors were allowed to make

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

the only way a random person would be able to afford med care without med insurance would be if someone put a cap on how much med doctors were allowed to make

That would only create a shortage as fewer doctors come onto the market and their services do not supply the demand. The result will be a black market which creates its own problems, like stolen kidneys. People don't bust their ass at med school for free.

 

[monoxide_child]

That would only create a shortage as fewer doctors come onto the market and their services do not supply the demand. The result will be a black market which creates its own problems, like stolen kidneys. People don't bust their ass at med school for free.

med school is too expensive
that was my point, med insurance is neccassary to enable doctors to pay for their med training
med insurance could be eliminated ONLY AFTER med school tuition drops down to a level where a random person wanting to become a doctor could completely finish paying all tuition fees (EVERYTHING he owes to the med schools) BEFORE actually getting his degree

 

[razoredge]

med school is too expensive
that was my point, med insurance is neccassary to enable doctors to pay for their med training
med insurance could be eliminated ONLY AFTER med school tuition drops down to a level where a random person wanting to become a doctor could completely finish paying all tuition fees (EVERYTHING he owes to the med schools) BEFORE actually getting his degree

Your being to easy man, fuck them doctors, they might do "years" of college but they have a cake walk after thats over. fuuck them !

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

med school is too expensive
that was my point, med insurance is neccassary to enable doctors to pay for their med training
med insurance could be eliminated ONLY AFTER med school tuition drops down to a level where a random person wanting to become a doctor could completely finish paying all tuition fees (EVERYTHING he owes to the med schools) BEFORE actually getting his degree

You are greatly confused and further due diligence on your part is warranted.

Medical insurance is for customers so that, baring a token co-pay, they lock in all of their medical expenses (to a point) for a nominal fee every month. Malpractice insurance is for doctors, but it does not cover medical school: if a doctor messes up, the medical insurance pays it out. Uncle Ari told me all about this when I wanted to become a doctor, but he advised against it because this country is not safe for learned men any longer, nor for our wallets. That is why I study engineering - I can set up shop anywhere without adopting to a new set of regulations &/or practices.

@Razor: save your anti-intellectual redneck tripe for someone with an IQ at or below room temperature. You bring nothing to this forum. If it was not for the doctors, as well as the nurses who are on the forefront, myriads of intelligent, productive people would have since perished.

 

[razoredge]

@Razor: save your anti-intellectual redneck tripe for someone with an IQ at or below room temperature. You bring nothing to this forum. If it was not for the doctors, as well as the nurses who are on the forefront, myriads of intelligent, productive people would have since perished.

Be quiet my little educated retard, if it was not for insurance the doctors would have little business. No one could afford their current fees. The entire healthcare system works as one big machine for the soul purpose of supporting thier own worth.

I have Doctors in my family and they have one hell of a life, a cake walk, all the way. Spent years as professional students, sweet summer vacations, now they have it even better... for what ? Eight years of "colledge"?... woo hoo. Calling a spade a spade is hardly "anti-intellectual" quite the opposite in fact.

My daughter is going to school for nursing, her grades far excede that of high school, in fact a 92% average, but you know ?... right?... butt cheeks!... intelligence is an inherited thing.

Tripe donkeys such as yourself should NOT be safe in this country or anywhere else for that matter and its quite possible the day will come when reality comes hammering down.