History of Metal

[speed]

What is the proper history of metal and its subgenres? We all know Black Sabbath started it all, but what happened after them?

Ive come to a few conclusions, which are most likely wrong in a few areas.

First, Venom started black and Death metal. The Possessed put out the first true death metal album. Celtic Frost defined black metal, and Mayhem started the whole minimalistic black metal approach. Judas Priest got both power and speed going. Led Zeppelin Queen and Journey seem to me responsible for the whole hair metal debacle. Motorhead, Maiden, and Priest influenced thrash. Slayer, Diamond Head, Exodus, sepultura, and early metallica created thrash. Motorhead also sort of started hardcore and crust rock. Maiden was a big influence on power and prog, as was early Yngwie, and modern power metal seems to copy Helloween. Napalm Death started the whole grindcore/noisecore genre. Godflesh or Ministry started the whole industrial, or industrial like genre. Sepultura's Roots and MAchine Head laid the foundation for nu metal. What band started metalcore is a big question I cant answer. What band started sludge, besides Sabbath?

So, can someone ( im thinking especially Profanity) explain if this list is partially correct? I just feel it is hard to understand metal as it is now, without understanding where metal came from.

 

[Under a Stone]

First, Venom started black and Death metal. The Possessed put out the first true death metal album. Celtic Frost defined black metal, and Mayhem started the whole minimalistic black metal approach.

Hellhammer and Bathory also had a huge influence on death and black metal.

 

[oneshotendsthiswar]

bands like deadguy, rorschasch, human remains, earth crisis, so on and so forth are some of the bands that started metalcore if im not mistaken. i think in 20 years we'll be looking back on metalcore like we do on 80s metal now. journey and the scorpions rule though.

 

[no country for old wainds]

DM - Possessed, Death, Sepultura, Slayer -----> Morbid Angel, Morgoth, Autopsy....etc
BM - Venom ----> Bathory, Hellhammer ------> Mayhem, Burzum, Immortal, Darkthrone....etc

Of course, Venom have influence on just about every extreme metal band.

 

[Halcyon Dusk]

Venom started black and Death metal.

This shit, I have never fucking understood. Venom pre-dated Thrash, Speed, Power, etc., and those all pre-dated Black and Death, so how can Venom be credited with being the first Black/Death act? I mean, Metallica was heavier and more brutal than Venom, but nobody credits James Hetfield with inventing death metal... musically, Venom had more in common with Motorhead than Mayhem or Deicide... I mean, seriously, what part of Venom sounds even vaguely "black" or "death"? Punk beats, punk vocals, punk riffs, only played a slight bit faster and louder...

Wait... that's it... to answer your final question, I'd say the first Metalcore band was... fucking Venom.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I'd insult you for being dumb, but I just remembered you're a Covenant fan so I should really expect it.

Venom applied the concept of 'evil' to metal. Venom invented the term 'black metal'. The Venom influence is very clearly heard in early Bathory (for example). Bathory influence is very clearly heard in some Darkthrone (for example). It's all very obvious, really. Do you really expect what's typically known as black now to sound exactly like the band that sparked it all off?

 

[SlaughterofSoul]

Also, in the 80's, any band that had a satanic image or lyrics, was referred to as black metal.

 

[Halcyon Dusk]

I'd insult you for being dumb, but I just remembered you're a Covenant fan so I should really expect it.

Noooo... noooo Morbid.... just not grim enough....

Venom applied the concept of 'evil' to metal.

Black Sabbath applied the concept of 'evil' to metal. Actually, there were bands before them who used 'evil' imagery and whatnot, but the point is that it wasn't Venom.

The Venom influence is very clearly heard in early Bathory (for example).

Bathory, at least the first 2 (maybe 3) albums, was nothing more than the accidental product of Quorthon's complete lack of instrumental or vocal ability. Bathory was, just like Venom, nothing but lo-fi punk/metal. Oh, and Quorthon has said quite often that he did not, and has never, listened to Venom.

Bathory influence is very clearly heard in some Darkthrone (for example).

By the time Darkthrone became clearly, undeniably Black Metal (after "Blaze"), there was at least 2 generations of bands between them and Bathory, 3 or 4 between them and Venom. They were definately not a "clearly heard" influence, the riffs are not even vaguely similar, expect maybe for some of the stuff on "Soulside Journey". I guess that makes Bathory death metal, doesn't it?

This is like when people say Diamond Head was Thrash because they influenced Metallica and Megadeth, when they were simply a single element of what was to become "Thrash".

It's all very obvious, really. Do you really expect what's typically known as black now to sound exactly like the band that sparked it all off?

I don't even consider what is called "black" now to be "black". It's all semi-melodic blackened death, as far as I'm concerned. Actually, it seems today's black metal has more to do with Venom than true early-mid 90's black metal.

 

[TB666]

Bathory created Viking metal.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Black Sabbath applied the concept of 'evil' to metal. Actually, there were bands before them who used 'evil' imagery and whatnot, but the point is that it wasn't Venom.

Sabbath delved into Satanism every so often, as did other bands. But Venom's music was the first to have the essence of raw evil itself present in the music.

Bathory, at least the first 2 (maybe 3) albums, was nothing more than the accidental product of Quorthon's complete lack of instrumental or vocal ability. Bathory was, just like Venom, nothing but lo-fi punk/metal. Oh, and Quorthon has said quite often that he did not, and has never, listened to Venom.

That's irrelevant. You can hear the similarities, whether it's intentional or not.

By the time Darkthrone became clearly, undeniably Black Metal (after "Blaze"), there was at least 2 generations of bands between them and Bathory, 3 or 4 between them and Venom. They were definately not a "clearly heard" influence, the riffs are not even vaguely similar, expect maybe for some of the stuff on "Soulside Journey". I guess that makes Bathory death metal, doesn't it?

They innovated the tremelo-strumming technique. They introduced what is these days known as typical BM vocals. Their polyrhythmic influence is obvious in second wave bands, as is their layering, their minimalist techniques, etc. You can actually hear their influence in Immortal, Burzum, Mayhem and Darkthrone (not to mention a host of other bands), I just used Darkthrone as an example.

This is like when people say Diamond Head was Thrash because they influenced Metallica and Megadeth, when they were simply a single element of what was to become "Thrash".

Not really, I never actually called Venom "black metal", I just said they heavily influenced the genre.

I don't even consider what is called "black" now to be "black". It's all semi-melodic blackened death, as far as I'm concerned. Actually, it seems today's black metal has more to do with Venom than true early-mid 90's black metal.

It depends on what you listen to...

 

[no country for old wainds]

Also, I thought you liked the band Covenant rather than the album. My apologies. While not brilliant, it's not something to mock you about.

Liking late Emperor on the other hand...

 

[no country for old wainds]

Random points from a tired mind:

* Morgoth's name in the history of DM should be written within parantheses at best. Why would you name Morgoth as innovators?

* Not mentioning Sodom as black metal innovators is dumb.

* Sepultura's first EP is black metal.

Resurrection Absurd was an extremely innovative EP. It was wonderfully epic and complex, for its time.

Sodom were indeed innovative, I should really have mentioned them.

Bestial Devastation is generally death metal, although I can see why people might think otherwise - there is some black in there.

 

[oneshotendsthiswar]

Also, I thought you liked the band Covenant rather than the album. My apologies. While not brilliant, it's not something to mock you about.

Liking late Emperor on the other hand...

i suppose its time somebody good and mocked me then, i like emperors older stuff but reeeeally prefer the newer stuff, although i am willing to admit its not real deal black metal. on the other hand, i never claimed to be anything but a metalhead so i guess it doesnt matter. bring the mockery.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Morgoth might have been innovators, but I remain unconvinced that they deserve a place next to Morbid Angel and Autopsy. Naming as few bands as three, I would probably not have picked Morgoth as one of them myself, but eh...

On another day I would've picked somebody else, I wasn't necessarily suggesting that those three were definitely the most influential. I think my reason for naming them was precisely because their influence is under-appreciated.

Regarding Sepultura I didn't really mean to argue with your saying that they were important in influencing death metal, because obviously they were, more so than black metal, I just think that the first EP with its open tremolo picking and Satanic lyrics was much more BM than it was DM.

It's certainly their blackest work. I'd still categorise it as DM though, noting the rhythmic qualities. It's actually my favourite release of theirs.

Another Brazilian band that's definitely worthy of naming when discussing the influences of modern BM is Sarcófago. Their 1987 "I.N.R.I." album uses a lot of riffing that obviously influenced Norwegian second-wave BM. I know Fenriz of Darkthrone, for one, namedrops Brazilian bands as influences at every given opportunity.

Agreed.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Pentagram

 

[Profanity]

Metal comes from Heavy Metal and Heavy Metal was a term used to describe very loud Rock Music and was in a novel by William Burroughs.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

Another Brazilian band that's definitely worthy of naming when discussing the influences of modern BM is Sarcófago. Their 1987 "I.N.R.I." album uses a lot of riffing that obviously influenced Norwegian second-wave BM. I know Fenriz of Darkthrone, for one, namedrops Brazilian bands as influences at every given opportunity.

Sarcófago is great. "I.N.R.I." is a good record.

 

[speed]

Well to anyone out there, just how much did motorhead influence punk and speed metal? Also, I am wondering about the extent of the impact of celtic frost and sodom on black metal?

 

[Halcyon Dusk]

Also, I thought you liked the band Covenant rather than the album. My apologies. While not brilliant, it's not something to mock you about.

Understood. I'd be kicking my own ass for enjoying that crime against humanity.

Liking late Emperor on the other hand...

Come on... 'Anthems' was the first, last, and only really cool 'symphonic' black metal album. The 'symph' style after that album became... well, faggotous bounce-music made by power-metal kids.

Now, I will admit that I do listen to some prog gayness from time to time, which is why I like Prometheus...

 

[prozak]

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/history.html