holiday hate thread

[lizard]

from Corrente:

One Way Wanda's "Christian" Jihad
Earlier last evening, while listening to Pat Buchanan making grunting noises about the outrages of something he called "Christianophobia" - an exciting new buzzword the mob-baiters at MSNBC's Scarborough Country have, apparently (?), invented - I dunno... but anyway, it occured to me that maybe he's right. Maybe Falangist Pat's on to something here. Maybe there is a toxic "Christianophobia" fermenting in the outlands. And maybe this new so called phobia has become more potent and apparent because of stuff like this...

Some rattleskulled village bigot named Wanda lights up a cross for Dear Leader and the greater glory of the Christian Cultural Revolution. Listen to this bullshit:

Christians Are Taking Back America - LINK
by: wanda_for_decent_values (47/F/Des Moines, IA)
12/13/04 10:29 pm

And we are THROUGH kowtowing to muslims, atheists, homosexuals and anti-American "artists" living on our tax dollars!

By the end of President George W Bush's 2nd term:

1) Iraq will be well on the way to being a peaceful Christian country. Once Iraq has gone Christian, the Gospel of Jesus will spread throughout the Middle East. The region will be at peace and millions of Arab souls will be saved through the grace of Jesus Christ.

2) Bush will have appointed at least two USSC Justices and the baby slaughterhouses will finally be closed down forever.

3) Gays will be put back in the closet for good. The sodomy and decency laws will be reinstated and their disgusting disease spreading activities will be outlawed again. Maybe we can’t get rid of them, but we can get them out our children’s view.

4) School vouchers will allow parents to send their kids to decent Christian schools instead of the NEA-infested cesspools that exist now.

5) Worthless liberal social welfare programs will be dismantled and replaced by Christian faith-based government funded programs. People will finally get REAL help through Jesus Christ.

6) Filthy shows like Howard Stern, Jerry Springer and Will & Grace will be off the air and replaced with decent Christian family programming. Families will once again be able to turn on the radio or television and not be embarrassed to listen or watch together.

7) The abominable scourge of Internet pornography will end with the expansion and ENFORCEMENT of the Online Decency Act. Pornographers who expose the public to this sickening material will be behind bars where they belong.

You can be with us or against us, but you had BETTER believe one thing:

Christians are DONE sitting at the back of the bus.

 

[gekko]

Ok, sorry xfer I'm gonna have to disagree. Christmas in and of itself is a religious holiday. Its original purpose was to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Granted its date was altered in history in order to match with solstice celebrations so as to make conquered countries more comfortable with their new religious celebrations, but in the end it still has a very specific religious purpose. However, with the over-commercialization of it and other people thinking it sounded good, what we have essentially gone back to is some people celebrating Christmas(that is, a way of worshipping Christ) and some people are essentially celebrating solstice while still calling it Christmas.

 

[lizard]

jesus wept...check out this party girl

Basics
Yahoo! ID: wanda_for_decent_values
Real Name: Wanda
Location: Des Moines, IA
Age: 47
Marital Status: Married
Gender: Female
Occupation: Home Maker

More About Me
Hobbies: Working through the Internet to bring people to God.
Latest News: Volunteering at Sunday School and now at an womens center that provides pregnant women alternatives to murdering their unborn babies.

 

[xfer]

ummm just about every holiday has religious roots. that doesn't mean it's currently a religious holiday. when you say "christmas", people think of the secular trappings--santa, trees, gifts, lights. and yeah, those came from religious practises, but if you think that coming from religious roots means something is religious, you are hugely underestimating the religious roots of Western society.

 

[avi]

um, Jesus was born in the springtime guys. Remember the sheep and the manger and all that.

 

[lizard]

true. but to get those pagan germans into line, they had to offer concessions.

 

[gekko]

But the thing is a large portion of people today still do think of it in religious terms. The only reason you think of it as a non-religious holiday is because of the over-commercialism that came because of the huge Christian population of this country. And our media has had an effect on other nations as well. Why do you think there are special Church services still associated with Christmas. If it is a secular holiday why is it that I still hear my pastor discuss the story of Jesus's birth around Christmas time if not on Christmas. And if Christmas is secular why does the same thing happen in every church around the country?

 

[minxnim]

throw in a few pictures of baby jesus, and you have a good reason to get drunk. THE END.

 

[minxnim]

p.s. is there any proof that media can actually 'brainwash' people?

 

[xfer]

(I think gekko acknowledged that, avi....but the fact helps MY point. are you siding more with me? I can't tell)

People think of it in religious terms because they are idiot right-wing Christians or idiot reactionary leftists who are concerned that the Jewish kid at school is going to be damaged by being in a Christmas pagaent. Christmas isn't even the biggest Christian holiday theologically--Easter is. For commercial reasons (buying and selling gifts), Christmas was elevated from semi-important religious holiday to The Biggest Secular American Holiday Of The Year. Hanukkah (not the most important Jewish holiday) was also elevated for the same reason, and out of a misguided desire to somehow "even out" Christmas shit.

and I don't understand the rest of your post about your pastor discussion the birth of Jesus. just because some Satanist teenagers celebrate Halloween by killing cats doesn't make it a religious holiday. every church usually mentions the Fourth of July in their sermons and I can't think of a more extreme secular holiday. how does a religion celebrating day in their own way (COMPLETELY different from the secular/mass culture way of celebrating) inject the day permanently with religiousness no matter how explicitly non-religious it is?

 

[gekko]

um, Jesus was born in the springtime guys. Remember the sheep and the manger and all that.

That is what I meant about Christians changing the dates so as to make it coincide with Solstice. Throughout history people who conquer and then try and change another peoples beliefs, sometimes they do things like adjust the dates of religious holidays to match with those of the conquered, in order to make the celebration of their holidays feel more natural to the conquered or invaded.

 

[xfer]

aaaand would you say Christmas is primarily a pagan holiday because it has pagan practises associated with it and pagans still celebrate the solstice with tree ceremonies?

 

[gekko]

Perhaps the Fourth of July gets mentioned, although I have never noticed that. However, it gets mentioned more as a vehicle to discussing other things. At Christmas, the worship of Jesus and the celebration of Christmas as his birth is the specific reason for these sermons.

 

[gekko]

aaaand would you say Christmas is primarily a pagan holiday because it has pagan practises associated with it and pagans still celebrate the solstice with tree ceremonies?

No, I wouldn't because it adopted these practices for a specific purpose(admittedly one I don't particularly agree with) while still maintaining the purpose behind the holiday.

 

[xfer]

also, you're giving too much power and credit to the conquerers. the examples of indigenous-influenced Catholicism in South America and Africa are almost certainly due to the natives influencing the religion they were being told about much more than conquistador types deciding to pretend that Jesus likes eating bowls of liquor and blood you leave behind your door. Christmas was another example of this--the oppressed Christians moving the festival to concide with Saturnalia.

you still haven't explained how that makes Santa Claus and Rudolph more Christian than secular.

 

[xfer]

how can you possibly say that Western capitalism hasn't done exactly the same thing? it adopted Christmas practises for a specific purpose and thus changed the holiday into a secular one the same way Christians changed the pagan one into a Christian one.

 

[avi]

your discussion is further proof that christmas does indeed suck total ass. fuck this shit, secular or religious. it all blows donkey dick.

 

[gekko]

I can say that because it is still celebrated as a religious holiday by a very large group of people around not only this country but others as well. I am not trying to deny that the holiday has become very over-commercialized, in fact I think I said that early on. All I am saying is that some people taking the parts of the holiday that are not blatantly Christian and adopting it as their own holiday does not negate the fact that the Holiday is in fact religious.

 

[xfer]

I guess I can't reply again until you actually address the points I made.

Like it or not, Avi, every nation has its national holidays as part of its culture, and we got Christmas.

 

[gekko]

what question didn't I answer? I guess I'm not understanding very well because nothing annoys me more than people evading my questions. I assure you I'm not doing it intentionally.