Holocaust Debate in Iran

[lurch70]

the west: "the problem with the middle east is that there's no democracy or freedom of speech!!"

this brings to mind this book I am about to read ... The Looming Tower

an excerpt from a reader review:

It is Wright's objective to get inside, to the very core, of Al-Qaeda's chief figures and show us how they feel humiliated by the successes of the West, including Israel, and how this humiliation, plus a great deal of sexual repression, animates their obsession with becoming "martyrs for Allah."

more here:
Amazon.com: The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11: Books: Lawrence Wright


I really believe that the general everyday freedom most people are robbed of in those nations IS the reason for most of this insanity ...

Although most, when given such freedoms, don't know what to do with them and how to channel them into something positive.

This happened in Romania as well after the fall of Communism ...

 

[MajestikMøøse]

if only they had another Codreanu

 

[lurch70]

hahaha ... yeah, "real" Romanians are not very jew loving people even nowadays. I don't think many jews are living in the heartland.

 

[Necromunchkin]

One of the big issues of debate is the whole notion of the use of Zyklon B. A lot of deniers will claim that there were never holes in any of the ceilings that would have been necessary for the pellets of gas to drop into these "showers." There's a wonderful essay on the subject, not from a "fact or not" view but from a Jewish journalist who has spoken at many such conventions.

 

[Demilich]

They also say that Zyklon-B was used in delousing facilities and would have been ineffective for extermination... but what the hell do I know?

 

[Necromunchkin]

How accurate what we've been told aside, it seems to me that by saying "no one can believe otherwise or even say it out loud" is the sort of thing that will cause a problematic backlash. As the aforementioned writer had pointed out, imprisoning and punishing someone for having a differing view will only give rise to new hate.

 

[Demilich]

How accurate what we've been told aside, it seems to me that by saying "no one can believe otherwise or even say it out loud" is the sort of thing that will cause a problematic backlash. As the aforementioned writer had pointed out, imprisoning and punishing someone for having a differing view will only give rise to new hate.

 

[skeptik]

How accurate what we've been told aside, it seems to me that by saying "no one can believe otherwise or even say it out loud" is the sort of thing that will cause a problematic backlash. As the aforementioned writer had pointed out, imprisoning and punishing someone for having a differing view will only give rise to new hate.

+ a lot

I'm not sure if I am prepared to give credence to the thesis that there were no gas chambers, as the vast majority of the sources that I've read on the topic were heavily biased.

 

[Demilich]

What about all the stuff about the proximity of the supposed mass graves to the water supplies of some of the camps? What about the size of the mass graves being too small to hold the number of bodies in question?

 

[Henrik Main]

Haha exactly. It ought to occour to more people that it actually is somewhat strange that a practically theocratic society (which fervently hates freedom, as well have all been taught) beats the proud west when it comes to freedom of speech.

Yeah, it sure speaks volumes that anti-Semitic country no. 1 allows a holocaust debate to take place, eh! Way to show those Western hypocrites what freedom of speech is all about!

Edit: Another interesting story. Iranian President Ahmedinijad (sp?) was doing a speech on this issue at an Iranian technical university, and a protest erupted, including yelling, the firing of a firecracker, etc.

The President respondend calmly, with words, and no arrests were made. Similar protests at my school, York University, in Toronto, have been met with police brutality and subsequent trials for police officers violently abusing students and beating them behind closed doors afterwards. These police were hired privately by the university at a cost of hundreds of dollars of extra pay.

Yeah, Iran sure is a paradise for supporters of democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and other basic human rights, and this incident (which was NOT publically staged) is a good example of that.

 

[Captain Beard]

This thread stayed civilized so far... I'm impressed. Well, 'cept for Henrik's sarcasm. Hell, I might peek in every now and then to see what people feel about all this stuff. About time people can discuss Jews and the Holocuast with differing views and not get NO YUO yelled at them.

 

[The_Isle]

I don't think that this speaks much about freedom of speech in Iran.

I would for once like to know where to find an unbiased, impassionate source of info about the numbers of jews killed.

On the subject of Muslims, I've recently stumbled across this series of superb docos that may shine some light on the muslim fundy mindset. Though the doco is biased towards minimising the threat of islam fundamentalism, (not to mention it was filmed before the 2005 london bombings), it draws a very convincing parallel between the phenonmenon of islamic terrorism and a very western counterpart.

YouTube - Pt.1 The Neocons - Ideology and Fantasy

 

[Demilich]

Yeah, Iran sure is a paradise for supporters of democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and other basic human rights, and this incident (which was NOT publically staged) is a good example of that.

I probably know as much about the reality of life in Iran as most on these boards. I know it is a far cry from the freedom of Canada, believe me. Many of my friends and accquaintances over the past few years have immigrated from Iran, some as recently as a few months before I met them. I've spent many hours conversing with them about the injustices they met with in their homeland.

But it irks me that every time I point out an example of how they're doing some things better than us, people have to invent some conspiracy theory to debunk it because they can't allow such a thought to even enter their minds.

 

[Henrik Main]

The context of your post led me to believe that you used the story about the Iranian High Priest (President) responding calmly to the protesters to prove that Iran isn't too bad after all. Fair enough, I don't have any proof that says the incident you mentioned was staged, but shit like that does happen all the time (images of Saddam Hussein being praised by young kids spring to mind). Even if it isn't staged, it doesn't change anything, nor does it prove that Iran is "better than us" in any way. This is a country where freedom of press and freedom of speech is non-existant, where Sharia law constantly shows its ugly head, where there is no real political opposition, where human rights is constantly violated. Letting one guy speak up against the President without being executed, hardly means that they're doing some things better than us.

 

[Demilich]

It means that they handled that one situation far better than my own university and the Toronto Police Force did when a similar protest happened here. And there was not even a political power present. This was simply a Grass-Roots Anti-Imperialist Network protest against the ties between York University and the American government. My point was more about injustices at home - which are frequent - than it was about making Iran look good.

In modern Iran, money is the key to freedom. Laws can be avoided routinely by bribing police officers. I'm not sure how different this is here because I've never been in a position to test the theory.

To sum up: I'm not trying to make them look like a haven of free speech, I just call it as I see it. The report I spoke of was given in a Toronto newspaper. Now, I'm not sure if it was a staged protest, but I do find it hard to believe that at a university there would be absolutely no opposition to a speech about Holocaust revisionism.

 

[Thanatopsis123]

 

[Demilich]

OJ knows how that one goes too!

 

[Guthrum]

x456587097

 

[spaffe]

Yeah, it sure speaks volumes that anti-Semitic country no. 1 allows a holocaust debate to take place, eh! Way to show those Western hypocrites what freedom of speech is all about!

In what way is that different from Sweden hosting a conference on, say atheism? We're supposedly the world's least religious people and with your logic that would disqualify us from hosting this hypothetical conference; yet I doubt that you or anyone else would raise a cry.
Sure, Iran's anti-semitism is pretty backward, but not very surprising since they're under such considerable threat from Israel (/USA).

This conference says a lot about Europe/The Western world. My point is that it is absurd not to be allowed to do serious historical research on certain subjects without going to prison/be ostracized. And even though total freedom of speech is a utopia, at least the west should have the balls to admit this.

Secondly I personally don't deny the Holocaust, but I think it is necessary (as with every other great historical fact) to be somewhat skeptical and raise questions. One should also keep in mind that a lot of mighty groups/nations have a purely practical interest in preserving the Holocaust as an unquestioned historical fact. Just look at how Sovjet exaggerated the Auschwitz death toll to some ten million (or there about, I can't recall exactly) during the cold war to keep Germany as feeble and guilt ridden as possible and quelll national feelings. To assume that only the diabolical communists of yore would use such a human tragedy to further a political agenda is childishly naive.

 

[General Zod]

In what way is that different from Sweden hosting a conference on, say atheism?

Because Sweden hasn't come out and said they want to wipe Christians from the face of the earth. What do you suppose the Muslim world's reaction would be if Israel decided to hold a conference on whether or not[SIZE=-1] Muhammed was a pedifile (as several hadiths have suggested)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]?[/SIZE]

My point is that it is absurd not to be allowed to do serious historical research on certain subjects without going to prison/be ostracized.

Ohhhh... is that what this is... "serious historical research"? Come on. This is being done for one reason and one reason only; to antagonize Israel. To look at this as "serious historical research" is absurd.

Zod