Holocaust Debate in Iran
- Thread starter JayKeeley
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skeptik
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- Feb 7, 2003
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Maybe this particular conference is not a serious exploration of the facts, but do you believe, along with most ardent Holocaust supporters, that it is impossible to conduct "serious historical research" in the field of discrediting claims of the Holocaust?
Demilich
Remember
I can't believe people get so indignant over a group of individuals getting together to do research on a widely contested historical event, to the point where they'll completely twist the events around in their heards so they'll fit with their paranoid "PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH ME CAN'T DO FAIR REAASERCH!!!1" notions.
Why do you suppose the anti-Zionist Rabbis are attending this conference whose main goal is to wipe the enire Jewish race from the face of the earth?
hibernal_dream
A Mind Forever Voyaging
The reason the conference was held was clearly political, but that doesn't discredit the historians' and scientists' work during it. All scientific endeavors are initiated by political incentives - but the work of the participants must stand by itself and apart from whatever crap the politicians spew.
Demilich
Remember
In my opinion, very few things in life are as simple as "the reason for [x] is [y]." People take comfort in thinking they know one simple reason that something happened, and this comfort shields them from knowing the whole story.
Also, hibernal_dream, very good point about the political motivations for all kinds of initiatives in historical and scientific fields. Where would we be without all the technology (internet included) which we owe to politically motivated science?
Also, hibernal_dream, very good point about the political motivations for all kinds of initiatives in historical and scientific fields. Where would we be without all the technology (internet included) which we owe to politically motivated science?
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
I believe any and every issue should be open to healthy debate.
Is that all this is; a group of individuals getting together to discuss history? Come on... The idea of Iran hosting a holocaust conference is nothing more than a way to tweak Israel.
I'll assume this is intended for me, since you quoted me. However, I can't respond, as I have no idea what it is you think I've twisted.
Within any school of thought, there are people who have different philosophies when it comes to defending their school of thought. Most rabbis see this as a joke. However, some rabbis feel, that even though it's a joke, their voice should be heard.
Zod
Demilich
Remember
Rather those Rabbis are vehemently opposed to the notion of a Jewish nation-state based on the traditional laws of the Torah and Talmud, etc. It is never as black and white as you're trying to make it seem when you say that this conference exists for one reason only.
Motives and their consequences are often contradictory. When the guy who discovered insulin allowed a piece of bread or whatever it was to get moldy, did he do that for the purpose by which it is most commonly remembered? No. Would we not be worse off without it?
State your opinions on the Iranian government's intentions with calling this conference all you like, you are not in their heads. You do not know them personally. You do not know the entirety of their motives. The fact that your pure, unadulterated speculation has allowed you to blind yourself to the (admittedly kinda remote) possibility that something favourable will come out of this is what I have a problem with.
Motives and their consequences are often contradictory. When the guy who discovered insulin allowed a piece of bread or whatever it was to get moldy, did he do that for the purpose by which it is most commonly remembered? No. Would we not be worse off without it?
State your opinions on the Iranian government's intentions with calling this conference all you like, you are not in their heads. You do not know them personally. You do not know the entirety of their motives. The fact that your pure, unadulterated speculation has allowed you to blind yourself to the (admittedly kinda remote) possibility that something favourable will come out of this is what I have a problem with.
MajestikMøøse
Membrum virile
Well, I've restrained myself, but I might as well finally enter the debate; for ignorance has arisen, and ignorance must not be allowed to thrive if you wish to live in the truth.
Completely outside of the fact that Iran is holding this conference, the point is: In western nations there appears to be this intellectual block over matters regarding the events of the second world war, and in particular, what happened to a certain number of Jewish prisoners. Reports were made at the end of the war, but it's considered not just taboo to look into them to try to reconfirm them, but also prohibited by laws. The question is "why is this so?"
As nations who encourage free thought and free speech as the founding principle of our societies, and being at the core of our democracies themselves, why has this intellectual block been imposed upon us? Why should the search for historical truth be impeded? The truth sometimes hurts, but by the principles on which our society is founded this should not serve as a reason to halt the progress of historical truth. If you believe in the ideals of truth, justice, and freedom, you should be able to respect this investigation.
In closing:
Naturally, I think that democracy and freedom are bullshit and truth is relative to the one who perceives it. So this whole debate can go to hell for all I care. I just like making people question their beliefs.
Completely outside of the fact that Iran is holding this conference, the point is: In western nations there appears to be this intellectual block over matters regarding the events of the second world war, and in particular, what happened to a certain number of Jewish prisoners. Reports were made at the end of the war, but it's considered not just taboo to look into them to try to reconfirm them, but also prohibited by laws. The question is "why is this so?"
As nations who encourage free thought and free speech as the founding principle of our societies, and being at the core of our democracies themselves, why has this intellectual block been imposed upon us? Why should the search for historical truth be impeded? The truth sometimes hurts, but by the principles on which our society is founded this should not serve as a reason to halt the progress of historical truth. If you believe in the ideals of truth, justice, and freedom, you should be able to respect this investigation.
In closing:
Naturally, I think that democracy and freedom are bullshit and truth is relative to the one who perceives it. So this whole debate can go to hell for all I care. I just like making people question their beliefs.
Demilich
Remember
^ thanks for the help there! very well said!
I think we can agree that democracy's hegemonic status among nation-states is going to exist as long as it continues to be such a valuable asset in controling the populace.
I think we can agree that democracy's hegemonic status among nation-states is going to exist as long as it continues to be such a valuable asset in controling the populace.
Thanatopsis123
ç½é¬¼
Demilich
Remember
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
A good question. It's illegal to even ask this question in certain countries.MajestikMøøse;5681811 said:
Well stated.MajestikMøøse;5681811 said:
Zod
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
Here are some additional conferences I suspect you'll see no ulterior motives behind:
"White Woman Marrying Black Men". An open debate to be hosted by the Ku Klux Klan, in Alabama.
"Should you drink more Coca Cola?" A dietary conference, hosted by Pepsi.
"File Sharing: Good or Bad?" Moderated by Lars Ulrich, to be held at Warner Brothers' headquarters.
"PS3 vs. Xbox 360". Hosted by Sony, in Tokyo, Japan.
Zod
Demilich
Remember
Really, for me it isn't about not seeing ulterior motives, its about reserving judgement until the results are available and not wasting too much time worrying about motives when I can't really be sure of what the bloody hell I'm saying in any event.
If they come back with "No Jews were killed, end of story. Now lets nuke Israel!" then we'll talk, but until then, you're still leaping to conclusions and I just want to reserve judgment for now.
Captain Beard
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- Sep 6, 2001
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I'll tell you something this holocaust debate has done, and we may have even witnessed it here in this thread: it's got people talking. It's got people surprised that this topic was even up for debate where previously they thought there was only one truth. The fact is, our history books just tells us that these are the events and that we need to follow suit without question....and now all of a sudden people are realizing that there might be a different side to this story.
It's raising questions around the world, amidst the common people, that should never have been asked, and THAT is where Iran is already winning in taking away some of the Israeli gleam and polish and perhaps uncovering a dirty spot.
It is a shame that Iran had to host this because of the stigma attached, but nobody else is even allowed to discuss it. Perhaps these events should be allowed in Switzerland?
EDIT:
just realized at how honest the swiss bankers have been since the fallout of WW2 D'OH
well, you get the point -- someone a little more neutral should be allowed to host this debate
It's raising questions around the world, amidst the common people, that should never have been asked, and THAT is where Iran is already winning in taking away some of the Israeli gleam and polish and perhaps uncovering a dirty spot.
It is a shame that Iran had to host this because of the stigma attached, but nobody else is even allowed to discuss it. Perhaps these events should be allowed in Switzerland?
EDIT:
just realized at how honest the swiss bankers have been since the fallout of WW2 D'OHwell, you get the point -- someone a little more neutral should be allowed to host this debate
hibernal_dream
A Mind Forever Voyaging
Thanks Majestik Moose. When you take a step back, the issue is really stupid. Fact is, there'd be no Holocaust deniers at all if had these conferences in the first place instead of people being worried about "harming the memories of the dead". All these world leaders are commenting on how shameful the conference is, but if they're sure the Holocaust happened, as 99% of the world is, why are they worried? Open up the issue, the Nazi vaults and have a discussion, and prove yourself correct, then the Holocaust would have so much more credibility.
And the holocaust-denial laws are absolutely ridiculous. If I wanted to go around saying the world is flat or the sun revolves around the earth, and present scientific evidence to back up my arguments, why should I be prevented from doing that?
And the holocaust-denial laws are absolutely ridiculous. If I wanted to go around saying the world is flat or the sun revolves around the earth, and present scientific evidence to back up my arguments, why should I be prevented from doing that?
Demilich
Remember
To be honest, I've read quotes where the Iranian president has voiced that this is one of his main motivations for holding the debate - to raise awareness in parts of the world where anything but what they want us to think seems to be suppressed. This is what I mean when I say its shortsighted to say things like Zod did here:
Very good post by the way Keeley
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
Just busting your balls.
Let me state this; I have no problem with an open discussion about the holocaust. Facts should always be questioned, no matter how well established they may (appear to) be. My only issue with this conference (and I tried to illustrate in joke fashion above) is its host. There's just no way to take Iran's conclusions on this matter seriously.
Zod
BenMech
student of the d'eh
Morbidly curious to see this answered:
Do you believe the decimated cultures of Europe SHOULD have been wiped out? (Jews, Romani (Gypsies), etc)? The basis of the conference is for those people who would answer yes. Period.
Next, look at your own culture. Why should yours be spared?
Do you believe the decimated cultures of Europe SHOULD have been wiped out? (Jews, Romani (Gypsies), etc)? The basis of the conference is for those people who would answer yes. Period.
Next, look at your own culture. Why should yours be spared?
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