Holocaust deniers

[petehis kahn]

We continue, with the NUMBERS

6 million is the popular figure, but facts are it could be as HIGH as 11 million when counting other ethnic, religious and minority groups targeted by the third Reich for extinction.

Many deniers often downgrade the figure to only a million deaths (ok only a million that is still horrid) or only three hundred thousand “casualties”.

NUMEROUS documents that the Germans had archived were discovered after the war, these gave meticulous accounts of the exterminations that took place at the death camps such as treblinka. Deniers claim that these documents are based upon propaganda that the soviets created.

Ok I made reference to a plaque before now I shall cover it in more depth.

On the gates of Auschwitz lay a plaque that said “Four million people suffered and died here at the hands of the Nazi murderers between the years 1940 and 1945” in 1990 they changed it to” May this place where the Nazis assassinated 1,500,000 men, women and children, a majority of them Jews from diverse European countries, be forever for mankind a cry of despair and of warning”

The lower number is due to soviets purposely overstating the number of wait for it NON-Jewish causalities at Auschwitz, according to historians. Deniers sized this opportunity to insist that the number of Jews killed must be lowered by 2.5 million but they are ignoring these simple facts.

The 4 million figure the soviets used included 2 million non-Jews
AND
Historians did not ever use the 4 million figures in calculating the number of Jews killed.

THE JEWISH POPULATION THEORY.

This is an oldie but a goody.

Deniers claim that the 1940 world almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15, 319, 359 while the 1949 gives it as 15, 713,638 in their view this makes it impossible that 6 million Jews were murdered. They therefore claim that either the data is wrong or the holocaust cannot have happened.

However as is normally the case the evidence does not stand up. In fact the 1949 almanac gives the world Jewish population as 11,266,600. Moreover it revises its estimate of the world Jewish population in 1939 to 16,643,120 thus according to the 1949 world almanac the difference between the pre and post war populations is over 5.4 million.

Strangely though the holocaust deniers would choose to use this almanac as a source, I would hardly consider that evidence at all. It is strange they do not use the more credible sources for Jewish population numbers; well they don’t use them because they do not tell them what they want to hear.

Every credible Jewish population guide shows a dip in population, every one of them.

Nazi Documentation

As I said in my above post the Nazis were stickers for documentation. The Hofle telegram listed over a million Jews killed in four camps during 1942 ALONE.

I have never seen any real evidence in all my days of studying and writing about history to suggest that anything about the holocaust is inaccurate. You people have the wrong idea of historians by the way, they are people who seek the truth, and they do not cover it up. No mainstream historian ever has denied the holocaust, only nut bags.

 

[derek]

Exaggeration yes, but denying its even existence, c'mon.

10 minutes in, VERY interesting video.

 

[petehis kahn]

I wouldn't say it has been exaggerated at all.

I will refute that video personally when I view it... hold on

ahaha its fucking 67 MB can someone give me his main argument points

 

[petehis kahn]

Still i don't understand why holocaust deniers are treated like criminals. Okay, they believe something that is silly. But in a country that calls itsself free and democratic somebody who believes in bullshit should still be able to express this bullshit without being sent to jail.
I think staying true to your opinions even if it means you get problems with the authorities is extremely honorable, no matter how silly those opinions are, no matter if you are a nazi or a jew, a democrat or monarchist, if you believe in a geocentric or heliocentric universe.

It isnt his opinions that got David Irving sent to prison

He was banned from entering Austria and still did anyway, also it is my belief that what he did should carry some form of punishment. I am not talking about his views either, but his methods.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Apparantly many of the bodies of the thousands of civilians killed in the psychopathic bombing of Dresden were taken to be incinerated at the Auchwitz camp. Also many of the starved Germans were heaped up together with starved Jews, etc into piles which were photographed and later shown as evidence to support the holocaust. These photographs have been shown to have included someone on the pile actually wearing a German uniform and other photos are argued to be forgeries. http://www.heretical.com/walendy/fakes.html

At the end of the war, the allies (mostly the red army) raped millions of German women and children. The Americans also imprisoned 5 million German civilians in open air concentration camps which were much worse that being in Auchwitz and being gassed would have been.

"roughly 5 million German civilians were rounded up and made prisoners of war in 1944/45". They were starved until more than a million of them had died from hunger and disease. http://www.rense.com/general48/ikes.htm

 

[Freanan]

Well i have to say i don't know much about the existing cases.
It would be good if you would post more details about Irving and maybe also Zündel.

In general i think if somebody would publicly announce that he believes the holocaust was a fake he would get serious legal problems, at least in germany. And this is what i find unjust and inappropriate (one could just disprove the holocaust deniers, show the most important proves that it happened and tell him to try to disprove it.. Then he would probably say "well, it is a fake because i think so". Everybody would see that his opinion is wrong and that's it).

 

[petehis kahn]

I surely can

David Irving is the big man of Holocaust denial, there are other big players in the field but he is the most well known.

He has been in trouble his entire career for commenting on the Jews.

Anyways I will start from his career as a historian (which he can be quite strong on, when he is not making up lies) the first of his lies is the dresden bombings he estimated that over 100 000 germans died during these raids 40 years later these figures were discredited and it turns out that 25 000 germans died.

All his work when reviewed by specilists does not stand up, every body of work he has ever written has been refuted.

It is his biography on Hitler he is most famous for and it is where the trouble for him begins. He claims that Hitler had no idea about the holocaust and Irving claimed that Heinrich Himmler and his deputy Reinhard Heydrich were its originators and architects (which a document I pasted above proves as false)

cause i am lazy I will copy this from wiki

By the late 1980s, Irving was barred from entering Austria. In the early 1990s, a German court found him guilty of Holocaust denial, and he was subsequently fined and barred from entering Germany. Other governments followed suit. In 1992, he was barred from South Africa and Canada, where he was arrested in November 1992 and deported back to the United Kingdom. In an administrative hearing surrounding those events he was found by the hearing office to have engaged in a "total fabrication" in telling a story of an exit from and return to Canada which would have, for technical reasons, made the original deportation order invalid. He was also barred from entering Australia in 1992, a ban he made four unsuccessful legal attempts to overturn.

He decided to enter a country he was banned from and got jailed for it, I mean how arrogant is that.

Zundel is a nobody really but from his wiki entry

In 1984 Zündel was criminally charged for "disseminating and publishing material denying the Holocaust." The trial was notable for its reliance on testimony from individuals such as David Irving and Fred A. Leuchter, a self-styled expert in gas chambers whose testimony was dismissed due to his lack of any engineering credentials. Key expert testimony against Zündel's alleged Holocaust denial was provided at great lengths by eminent Holocaust historian, Raul Hilberg. Zündel was convicted in 1988 and sentenced to 15 months imprisonment by an Ontario court; however, in 1991 in R. v. Zundel his conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court of Canada when the law he had been charged under, reporting false news, was ruled unconstitutional.

In 1997, Zündel's marriage with his second wife, Irene Margarelli, collapsed after 18 months. "At one point I really loved him," she told an acquaintance. "By the end, I thought he was evil incarnate."[2] She subsequently testifed against him in the late 1990s when he was under investigation by the Canadian Human Rights Commission for promoting hatred against Jews via his website. In January 2000, before the Commission had completed its hearings, he left Canada for Sevierville, Tennessee where he married his third wife, Ingrid Rimland and vowed never to return to Canada.

My stance on the issue is
People should not just change history and misuse it; it is personally for me the same as a person committing fraud. Mistakes happen in history, a girl I once tutored in classics asked me if Rome had satellites because she couldn't see how they mapped their country without them, but these people are lying or misusing history to commit acts of hate.

Is prison too much, maybe... but it is a fairly serious thing they are doing.

 

[petehis kahn]

Apparantly many of the bodies of the thousands of civilians killed in the psychopathic bombing of Dresden were taken to be incinerated at the Auchwitz camp. Also many of the starved Germans were heaped up together with starved Jews, etc into piles which were photographed and later shown as evidence to support the holocaust. These photographs have been shown to have included someone on the pile actually wearing a German uniform and other photos are argued to be forgeries. http://www.heretical.com/walendy/fakes.html

At the end of the war, the allies (mostly the red army) raped millions of German women and children. The Americans also imprisoned 5 million German civilians in open air concentration camps which were much worse that being in Auchwitz and being gassed would have been.

"roughly 5 million German civilians were rounded up and made prisoners of war in 1944/45". They were starved until more than a million of them had died from hunger and disease. http://www.rense.com/general48/ikes.htm

Yes everyone knows the red army committed what is thought of as the largest number military to civilian rape in history on their march east through Germany, I can't see what your point is.

Can you in future provide unbiased sources rather than sites that appear to be nazi websites, because really that’s not proving anything (also there proof is flimsy at best, I have friends who are big in the history of photography I shall get them to look over the pictures if I remember)

 

[Teh Grimace]

ahaha its fucking 67 MB can someone give me his main argument points

No.

Just watch the video.

It's too astonishing to be put into bullet points, plus there's quite a bit of image-related stuff which you have to, ya know, actually see.

 

[speed]

What difference does it make if they only killed 2 million over 6?

And how does one reconcile the eyewitness accounts from thousands of jews, and Germans after they were captured.

This is becoming a somewhat frightening thread. I have always been amazed at the human abiliy to believe in things contrary to the facts; but this is getting beyond belief.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Here are the benefits to those who say that 6 millions Jews were genocided by the Nazis:

1. The formation of the state of Israel
2. The ability to use Nazi-like methods of killing and brutality against Palestinians (because of the Jews' perceived illtreatement by Nazis making people pity them and try to excuse them.)
3. Making the world a safer place for Jews (because they go on about the holocaust so much that people don't want to criticise them and they are further away from one of the regular pogroms that they have regularly suffered throughout history.)
4. Somewhat easier to get in positions of power due to people worried about being thought anti-Semitic if they question them.
5. Making Germans (and all Germanic people) feel a burden of guilt and shame.
6. Changing the German constitution after the war in ways that are bad for Germans
7. Getting billions of pounds of compensation and justifying all the billions paid annually by various countries which were even Germany's enemies in the war.
8. Holocaust survivors gravy chain of books, chat shows and financial compensation.
9. Gentiles who criticise Israel or Jews generally being accused of being would-be murderous psychopathic genociders.
10. Any political parties with strong Nationalistic agendas kept down, vilified and even made illegal because of comparisons with Hitler's ideas.
11. Attempts to upgrade standards of behaviour called fascist. Which keeps gentiles in a downward spiral.
12. Eugenics given an evil image.
13. Naturally blond and blue eyed people feeling they have to prove they are not racist by many different methods which psychologically amount to a neurosis.
14. Downplaying of the significance of other genocides and mass killings such as Rwanda as they must not be considered to rival the Jewish genocide (this is not so much a benefit, rather a consequence.)
15 Giving people a fear of being labelled as being like Hitler if they disapprove of immigration from the third world.

Benefits to those who claim the holocaust is greatly exaggerated and that much evidence is falsified.
1. Notoriety from writing books, etc. (Strong risk of being fined or imprisoned or physically attacked while knowing that people are generally unsympathetic)
2. Popularity with others who share their views.
3. The feeling that they are standing up for something they believe in.

There are many disincentives to being labelled a "holocaust denier" so logic would suggest that no sane person would be likely to do this unless they really believed in what they were saying. Otherwise it would be about as sensible as going around shouting that you have an unhealthy obsession with children.

 

[petehis kahn]

if you dudes don't mind I will do this piece by piece unless it looks like getting gigantic

I will take notes as the video goes, so it will be a little all over the place


But that is where the consensus ends.

Ok that is where real historians and lunatics disagree; I know which group I trust.

Lack of documentation, ahahah it is as I have said on many occasions one of the most documented historical event of all time. The Germans were fanatical about documents.

Actually no, there was plenty of evidence discovered by allied troops.

First real point, the famous (as in the boring and trotted out a million times because it sounds impressive at first but does not stand up) claim that American veterans claimed that gassings went on at Dachau, but by god even Simon “legend” Wiesenthal said there was no killings on German soil (Dachau lay in Germany)
Cause I am lazy and apparently nazi websites are good sources around here I will use the famous and historical accurate in the sense they use sources and have proof for their claim Nizkor to back me up

If Dachau was in Germany and even Simon Wiesenthal says that it was not an extermination camp, why do thousands of veterans in America say that it was an extermination camp?
The IHR says:
Because after the Allies captured Dachau, thousands of G.I.s were led through Dachau and shown buildings alleged to be gas chambers, and because the mass-media widely, but falsely, stated that Dachau was a "gassing" camp.
Nizkor replies:
In the sense that tens of thousands of people were starved to death and sporadically killed in it, yes, Dachau was a death camp. The term "extermination camp" should probably not be applied to Dachau, because that is generally taken to mean one of the large camps in occupied Poland where mass gassings were performed (see question 3).
What is not in question is that the gas chamber did exist. The Allies captured the memo sent from Dr. Sigmund Rascher at Dachau to Himmler, which read (see Kogon et al., Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, p. 202):
As you know, the same facilities [gas chambers] have been built at the Dachau concentration camp as at Linz [Hartheim]. Whereas the "invalid transports" end up in certain chambers anyway, I ask whether we cannot test some of our various combat gases on specific persons who are involved in the action. Up till now there have only been animal tests or accounts of accidental deaths in the manufacture of these gases. Because of this paragraph, I have sent this letter marked "Secret."
An American reporter made a movie showing the gas chamber very soon after the camp's capture, showing how it was labelled "Brausebad" ("showers") despite having no shower facilities.
The question of whether the gas chamber can be proved to have been used has not been definitively answered. Some historians say that there is no question: it was never used. Some say that the question is still open. It comes down to two testimonies: that of a British officer named Payne-Best who says he heard Dr. Rascher speak of gassings, and that of Dr. Franz Blaha, who testified under oath to experimental gassings. For more information, see Kogon et al., op. cit., pp. 202-204, and Blaha's testimony in Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1947, vol. V, pp. 167-199. Dr. Charles Larson, a forensics expert, also examined gassing victims at the camp, saying "only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner."
Holocaust-deniers, of course, only present the point of view which says that it was never used. They often quote from a 1960 letter written by the director of the Institut für Zeitgeschichte (Institute for Contemporary History), in Munich (see Die Zeit, August 19, 1960, p. 16):
No Gassing in Dachau
Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed.
The letter of course confirms that mass gassing did take place in the larger camps. Holocaust-deniers don't like to mention that part. They also don't like to mention that, since 1960, the Institut has performed more research and has come to a new conclusion. They now say:
...a gas chamber was established [in Dachau] in which...a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed.
Finally, the "mass media," for the most part, states the facts: that Dachau was used for gassing on a very small scale. Whether the term "gassing camp" is appropriate would probably depend on context. If the IHR can present a cite in which a newspaper or magazine has printed an inaccuracy, let them do so. It won't be the first time, nor the last, that something was erroneously printed. If Holocaust-deniers think errors in newspapers help prove that the Holocaust did not occur, they are obviously deluded.

 

[Teh Grimace]

WATCH THE DAVID COLE VIDEO I POSTED!

Everybody, watch the video. If you are absolutely sure, without a shadow of a doubt, of the truth of your belefs, watch that video. Then tell me what you think.

 

[petehis kahn]

There are many disincentives to being labelled a "holocaust denier" so logic would suggest that no sane person would be likely to do this unless they really believed in what they were saying. Otherwise it would be about as sensible as going around shouting that you have an unhealthy obsession with children.

Well I have never accused those who deny the holocaust of being sane, so I suppose logic goes out the window

EDIT

Falsehood number 2, I have done history my whole life and have been told that many groups were targetted by the reich....ooops another error

Another quick point, even today people the average person doesnt understand how lice travel, back then lice was seen as a horrible thing so I am fairly sure that they were sprayed for the benefits of the german troops... once again his statement that people don't know about the de-lousing room is crap, I made mention of them in my first post.

Goodness

THERE IS A SWIMMING POOL AND A THEATRE HOLOCAUSE MUST BE A FAKE, no evidence at all so far and i am a 10th of the way in

ONCE again... there is documents to do with gas chambers, why did they order that cyanide... perhaps there was a bad rat problem at hitlers house *rolleye*

this video is just trash, I don't even major in modern history and I can tear it to pieces.

I have posted images of proofs in this thread.... oh wait I only posted one of them and made reference to the other, hold on I will dig it up

 

[Norsemaiden]

Yes everyone knows the red army committed what is thought of as the largest number military to civilian rape in history on their march east through Germany, I can't see what your point is.

Can you in future provide unbiased sources rather than sites that appear to be nazi websites, because really that’s not proving anything (also there proof is flimsy at best, I have friends who are big in the history of photography I shall get them to look over the pictures if I remember)

I do try to find sources that are not political, the one about the open air concentration camps is not, as far as I know, pro Nazi. However the problem is that information on controversial subjects that go against the views that the establishment wants people to believe is hard to reference from establishment-approved sources, which is pretty much everything.
"History is written by the victors" as the saying goes.

 

[petehis kahn]

Hofle telegram

It gives deaths for 1942 as L (Lublin Majdanek) 24,733, B (Belzec): 434,508, S (Sobibor) 101,370, T (Treblinka) 713,555 for a total Jewish victims of Aktion Reinhard in 1942 as 1,274,166.

 

[petehis kahn]

ahahahah its over mate, the video has been proven as a fraud.

That isn't the door to the gas chamber, that is the door to the de-lousing room, that is one of the most famous proven lies that holocaust deniers go on with.... sorry but how can I take the video seriously now.

also

The IHR says (original):

Zyklon-B, a hydrocyanic gas.

Nizkor replies:

Amazingly, even this four-word answer contains two errors.

First, Zyklon-B is the carrier of the gas, not the gas itself. Zyklon-B is the trademarked name for a substance, usually wood chips or diatomaceous earth, which has been impregnated with both the liquid form of hydrogen cyanide, and an irritant.

Second, the gas in question is hydrogen cyanide (sometimes called prussic acid). "A hydrocyanic gas" is nonsensical, because there is only one gas which is hydrocyanic, and that is hydrogen cyanide gas.

*rolleyes*

 

[Norsemaiden]

Just another benefit to the Israelis as a result of the holocaust and the resulting international kid gloves they are treated with, they are allowed to trade slaves (some estimate about 3000 women a year, some of them end up in snuff movies). http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/23/world/main682673.shtml

 

[petehis kahn]

Eastern europe has a slave trade market as well, I cannot understand your points.... what are you saying.

P.S the Soviets took into account all that died in the camp, I covered that point in my earlier posts.

So far this movie is a breeze to take a part

Deniers have said for years that physical evidence is lacking because they have seen no holes in the roof of the Birkenau gas chamber where the Zyklon was poured in. (In some of the gas chambers the Zyklon B was poured in through the roof, while in others it was thrown in through the windows.) The roof was dynamited at war's end, and today lies broken in pieces, but three of the four original holes were positively identified in a recent paper. Their location in the concrete matches with eyewitness testimony, aerial photos from 1944, and a ground photo from 1943. The physical evidence shows unmistakably that the Zyklon holes were cast into the concrete when the building was constructed.

I've covered most of this crap

Let me pause for a moment

the Forensic Institute of Cracow did find different results from Leuchter, that is once again scientific fact, how can you take this video seriously when he has offered up stuff that is wrong. I mean come on, it is documented fact that the forensic institute of cracow found traces of cyanide in both the delousing chambers and the gas chambers

Well I just finished watching this film and my eyes almost rolled out of my head from so much eye-rolling. It proves nothing, it is typical denial garbage.

I think you guys just have to face that 6 million jews were killed in the holocaust because frankly if all you can offer up is crack pots and lunatics then how are you going to argue against one of the most heavily documented events in history. Even David Irving admits that probably 4 million jews died... DAVID IRVING for godsake.

 

[Teh Grimace]

Your posts, so far, make my list of the WORST, most INCOHERENT refutations of Cole's video I have yet recieved from anyone. Your picture of "TEH PROOFS!!1!" shows us nothing other than to reiterate the fact, which neither I nor anyone else is denying, that many Jews died in these camps, for whatever reason. Actually, I can't find anything within your statements that really qualifies as "refuting". Just a lot of childish close-minded nonsense, mostly you stating again and again that the video (which YOU are supposed to be refuting) does not refute YOUR beliefs, which, of course, IT DOES.

So keeping with your childish nature, I must ask...

Are you Australian or Retarded?

Keep it up, d00d, I've done this with people who know alot more about your side of the argument than you do.