If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Dak]

Aye, there's the rub. Is it that a disproportionate amount of blacks don't follow the law (which you're right, they don't)? Or is it that a disproportionate amount of cops get nervous around any and all black people (which they do)? Or, is it a combination of both, since these two elements are certainly inextricable.

The point here is that they couldn't see the gun - it was in his shorts pocket, and nothing in the video indicates he was reaching for it (eyewitness testimony corroborates this). They assumed he had one, and they happened to be correct - good police senses. They also overreacted to a situation in which this particular black person probably was not intending to use his firearm. So in this case, it didn't have as much to do with him breaking the law as it did with two police officers whose reactions were probably overdetermined by an admittedly understandable anxiety around black people. And let's face it, if you're going to work in fucking Baton Rouge... maybe you should work on your anxiety issues.

If you act pre-emptively to stop someone from grabbing the gun you suspect is there - illegally, your decision is never vindicated even if you guess rightly about possession and intent. This is the same sort of problem I have with complaints about shooting at B&I when you don't know if they are armed, don't know if they "would have used" if they are, etc. Now obviously, Sterling was in a public, but the same issue presents itself. When faced with a criminal, especially one with a history, it's not inexcusable to lean towards "shoot first".

And furthermore, we have the story emerging today of a police officer who shot a black man in a car after he told the officer he had a handgun (and a permit to carry it). I don't think we can lay the blame at the feet of black people and say "well, so many of you break the law, it's just inevitable, you know?" I admit, I couldn't be a cop - I'd be way too trigger happy; but that's why I'm not a cop. Too often law enforcement attracts people ill-suited to the job.

Two things here: One, with only a perusing of the details this one looks really bad, and is a situation that concealed carriers are concerned about even when white (concern about how cops react when properly notified about a weapon legally being in the vehicle/on your person in the event of a traffic stop). No criminal history, had a job, paid the fees to legally carry. The guy was killed effectively for daring to exercise his 2nd amendment rights while being black with a broken taillight.

But, that's what I'm talking about. Why have the broken taillight? Taillights aren't that expensive. But oh wait.....they had weed in the car. Not that he deserved to die over that, and I'd rather see weed decriminalized. But he didn't help his cause, which he needed to do, because of the Sterlings and the Browns and every other faceless black felon. It's unfair, but it is the situation. You know why I don't have to worry quite as much if I get pulled over for a busted taillight? Because I wouldn't have one. Ok that's cheap. Let's pretend I did. I don't have to worry quite as much because of upstanding you. Because of my parents. Because of Dave Matthews Band. Because of any number of other faceless nonfelon whites. That's an unearned privilege, but it's a privilege that I actively contribute to.

Edit: I left off the second thing. We sort of talked about this at one time past. My pseudo-psych assessment of LE is that it attracts people pretty close (but slightly above) to the aptitude and orientation of the common criminal class it has to deal with. This is a sort of necessity and definitely a demand function. Fire with fire if you will.

And my last point (and, and, and...), which you probably won't like: it costs money to follow the law.

Not really. It's about priorities. Fixing a taillight instead of buying that dimebag. Paying for your tag. Going and getting your license renewed. Etc.

 

[Einherjar86]

White kids at Dave Matthews concerts are stoned as fuck. It has nothing to do with priorities in that case and everything to do with how cops perceive stoned white kids versus stoned black kids. The first are mostly harmless adolescents; the latter are violent criminals.

But I know what you're saying: that's a generalization, and it tends to fall along accurate assumptions. But the presence of weed itself is a red herring. Telling black people that they need to stick closer to the law than white people do because that's just how our current social conditions are elides the other half of the problem, which is that law-abiding blacks are still going to be targeted by police, and will likely suffer for it. There has to be some kind of acknowledgement from the other side.

 

[Dak]

White kids at Dave Matthews concerts are stoned as fuck. It has nothing to do with priorities in that case and everything to do with how cops perceive stoned white kids versus stoned black kids. The first are mostly harmless adolescents; the latter are violent criminals.

Yeah I know. I meant DMB tongue in cheek regarding the very saccharinely white nature of the music as opposed to fuckfuckfuckniggamothafucka music I hear blasting from the cars driving around here.

But I know what you're saying: that's a generalization, and it tends to fall along accurate assumptions. But the presence of weed itself is a red herring. Telling black people that they need to stick closer to the law than white people do because that's just how our current social conditions are elides the other half of the problem, which is that law-abiding blacks are still going to be targeted by police, and will likely suffer for it. There has to be some kind of acknowledgement from the other side.

Not all law abiding blacks. Mostly young male blacks giving an appearance of being criminal (ahem "thug"), which is what their music culture says is synonymous with getting laid. I don't like this framing of "stick closer to the law". It's about degree of the crimes and proportionality by race. There's plenty of jokes about white crime (even a hiphop song!) while blacks are 8 times more likely to commit homicide (overwhelmingly against other blacks though. #BLM).

 

[CiG]

Dak your privilege comment seems to ignore instances of whites being dealt with harshly/fatally by cops, I specifically remember that video of a young white guy who ignored police demands and attempted to drive away and the cop ran beside the car and unloaded a clip into him, killing him for what turned out to be a dime bag.

 

[SentinelSlain]

if America is so racist for people of colour, why are they all staying there or moving there and why are none of them going to Africa, especially now that Africa has been freed from evil colonialism?

 

[Dak]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-fatally-shooting-black-man-sparking-outrage/

Police said they responded about 12:35 a.m. Tuesday after receiving a 911 call about a man who was selling CDs and threatening people with a gun outside a Triple S Food Mart.

Well well. Let's look at Mr Dindu's rap sheet:

9/09/96 aggravated battery
10/31/97 2nd degree battery
1/06/98 simple battery
5/04/00 public intimidation
9/20/00 carnal knowledge of a juvenile
9/04/01 domestic violence
5/24/05 burglary of an inhabited dwelling place
7/11/05 receiving stolen things
9/12/05 burglary of inhabited dwelling place
3/17/06 simple criminal damage to property, simple robbery, simple theft, drug possession, misrepresentation during booking, simple battery, aggravated battery
4/12/06 aggravated battery, simple criminal damage to property, disturbing the peace, unauthorized entry
4/04/08 domestic abuse battery
6/03/09 resisting an officer, drug possession, receiving stolen things, possession of stolen firearm, illegal carrying of a weapon with CDs, sound reproduct without consent
10/12/09 illegal carrying of weapon, marijuana possession
8/13/15 failure to register as a sex offender
4/08/16 failure to register as a sex offender
6/14/16 ecstacy and marijuana possession

Those long pauses in between issues are, afaik, when he was locked up. Rumor of Blood affiliation is out there too. I would consider this man illegally armed and dangerous in responding to the situation. The police in this situation did the citizens of Baton Rouge a solid in permanently removing him from streets.

 

[SentinelSlain]

as much as I'm no star citizen in terms of what I've put into this country, reading that list kind of makes me feel a bit better about myself.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

if America is so racist for people of colour, why are they all staying there or moving there and why are none of them going to Africa, especially now that Africa has been freed from evil colonialism?

Because most African nations are reeling from misdevelopment and corrupt leadship in the aftermath of colonialism. Furthermore, for many who are citzens, it is THEIR country. They have a right to try and tranform the flaws of their own society. It is beyond idiotic to try and conceal America's deeply rooted racism by alluding to the flaws of third world countries. It's a massive red herring.

 

[SentinelSlain]

All leadership is "corrupt" to some extent or other. If a culture doesn't work, then it doesn't work, one conclusion that could be drawn from that is that America shouldn't slowly or rapidly convert to that culture, however much certain groups would feel a kind of ego boost by that happening.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

All leadership is "corrupt" to some extent or other.

That's a truism and a way for you to avoid the issue. There is corruption in the US gobernment, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's on par with your average post-colonial government, you're kidding yourself.

If a culture doesn't work, then it doesn't work, one conclusion that could be drawn from that is that America shouldn't slowly or rapidly convert to that culture, however much certain groups would feel a kind of ego boost by that happening.

Culture is not synonomous with government and the condition of a nation state. In other words, a broken government does not imply a "broken culture." Moreover, what culture are you implying America is "converting" to?

 

[Dak]

Because most African nations are reeling from misdevelopment and corrupt leadship in the aftermath of colonialism.

Of course it's only/majorly white man's fault that African nations, when handed the wheel of state, offered leadership to corrupt Africans who are misdeveloping the countries. I mean, darkly skin colored folk couldn't possibly have any agency. Plus, despite the vastness and diversity of an entire continent, they are all simply one big homogeneous lump of "Africans". So progressive.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Of course it's only/majorly white man's fault that African nations, when handed the wheel of state, offered leadership to corrupt Africans who are misdeveloping the countries. I mean, darkly skin colored folk couldn't possibly have any agency. Plus, despite the vastness and diversity of an entire continent, they are all simply one big homogeneous lump of "Africans". So progressive.

I never said or implied any of this. The production of sub-oppressors (people from the oppressed group who participate in the oppression of their people) is a fundamental element of colonization and still plays out today.

Obviously, the individuals who make these choices are responsible for their own decisions. I never implied otherwise. As always, you put words in orher people's mouths.

As for speaking of Africa in generalities, SS brought up that way and I was responding to him, so if you want to criticize someone, criticize him. That said, it's not inaccurate to say that all African countries have more corrupt governments than the USA: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2015#results-table

 

[SentinelSlain]

To be fair, Rhodesia and South Africa sometimes supported rebel groups in African civil wars. Libya (in Africa) supported the IRA in Northern Ireland.

 

[Dak]

I never said or implied any of this. The production of sub-oppressors (people from the oppressed group who participate in the oppression of their people) is a fundamental element of colonization and still plays out today.

Obviously, the individuals who make these choices are responsible for their own decisions. I never implied otherwise. As always, you put words in orher people's mouths.

Speaking of mouths, it looks a lot like you are talking out of both sides of yours. It appears in many cases in formerly colonized countries that when the indigenous people are handed the reins again, they keep the negatives and destroy the positives of colonization. Now why is that?

As for speaking of Africa in generalities, SS brought up that way and I was responding to him, so if you want to criticize someone, criticize him. That said, it's not inaccurate to say that all African countries have more corrupt governments than the USA: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2015#results-table

Fair enough.

 

[SentinelSlain]

America was once a British colony, same with Canada, Israel, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. The poorest former colonies tend to be the countries with the lowest level of civilization before colonization, controlling for the level of European settlement. So although that would put Australia at the bottom, it had a huge white majority on independence.

 

[Einherjar86]

Sterling's rap sheet is severely damning, and it doesn't really look good for the public discourse. But, I just have to say...

The police in this situation did the citizens of Baton Rouge a solid in permanently removing him from streets.

...when you say shit like this, you sound far less intelligent than you actually are.

From our perspective, he looks like a criminal and a "thug." From the perspectives emerging from his community, we get a totally different story. Let's not condemn an individual human based on a paper trail that, as you've already said, a disproportionate number of blacks in neighborhoods like this all have. Sterling wasn't unique. So unless you're advocating a widespread extermination policy of law enforcement toward black men with rap sheets of twenty items or more, I'd say we should save our applause for something other than police brutality.

tl;dr - don't be arg.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Speaking of mouths, it looks a lot like you are talking out of both sides of yours. It appears in many cases in formerly colonized countries that when the indigenous people are handed the reins again, they keep the negatives and destroy the positives of colonization. Now why is that?

The narrative you are creating is broken. In most cases, they aren't being handed the reigns "again" because these nations didn't exist prior to colonization. In most cases, a modern African nation is the conglomeration of numerous ethnicities, cultures and religions. The borders are a European product and served European needs. Now, these heterogenous societies are compelled to govern through a modern nation state, typically grounded in external (European) governance systems.

Furthermore, via neocolonialism, multinational corporations hold massive sway in many resource rich developing (or should I say "mis-developed") nations. In many cases multi-national corporations have more power than the governments of developing countries. Resources are sucked out of mis-developed countries and imported to developed countries, benefiting an elite minority in the mis-developed country, while devastating the majority. For example, look at the way that sweatshops can come in and exploit a region for its laborers only to leave for another country when a better opportunity arises. Now all those workers are left unemployed and desperate and the economy is broken. At the same time, these companies often function within tax havens and avoid having to give back to the countries they are exploiting. Add in a lack of accountability, a lack of education, disease and lack of basic resources, and you have the perfect recipe for exploitation and a dearth of successful resistance.

Of course, this is all generalities and patterns; if we were to examine a specific country we could develop a more precise analysis. However, the negative impacts of these factors is undeniable.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

America was once a British colony, same with Canada, Israel, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. The poorest former colonies tend to be the countries with the lowest level of civilization before colonization, controlling for the level of European settlement. So although that would put Australia at the bottom, it had a huge white majority on independence.

There are no levels to civilization.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

..and this happened. oh boy

https://twitter.com/Kool_Mo_B/status/750913058298597376

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/falcon-heights-shooting-minnesota/

 

[SentinelSlain]

cases multi-national corporations have more power than the governments of developing countries. Resources are sucked out of mis-developed countries and imported to developed countries, benefiting an elite minority in the mis-developed country, while devastating the majority. For example, look at the way that sweatshops can come in and exploit a region for its laborers only to leave for another country when a better opportunity arises. Now all those workers are left unemployed and desperate and the economy is broken. At the same time, these companies often function within tax havens and avoid having to give back to the countries they are exploiting. Add in a lack of accountability, a lack of education, disease and lack of basic resources, and you have the perfect recipe for exploitation and a dearth of successful resistance.

Of course, this is all generalities and patterns; if we were to examine a s

Not only are the borders artificial European constructs, so are all of the complex abstract terminologies and theories with which sociologists construct oppressions, racisms and excuse failure. A lot of pretty important ideas simply did not exist in African languages. Basically what tended to happen upon decolonization was a return to what had happened before.

Edit.

From seeing that video, I think the US police should avoid confronting people except about serious or violent crimes. So, why not put out a fine and a repair order out on that car automatically, from a database with the license details on it, when the policemen spot it, with a snapshop from an in car camera as proof, then say the driver has a week to get it fixed or taken off the road. If the policeman is so scared for his life that he has to behave like that then the situation / problem isn't worth the risk. Then after that week period has gone, you could have it on the computer system that the car can be towed if it is left unattended and taken to a yard where it can be bought back, including cost or repair or something. If that many people are getting shot in investigations for unimportant crimes then it isn't worth it. It also isn't worth cops endangering their lives.