If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Einherjar86]

Cultural ideology is a bitch.

Most botched circumcisions appear to happen outside the U.S., from what I can tell, and by unlicensed or poorly educated practitioners. The vast majority of circumcisions in America occur in hospitals and are administered by health professionals.

This is also something any/everybody might want to check out.

http://www.circinfo.org/USA_deaths.html

This is worth looking into. But also take note of the total number of circumcisions performed each year. In 2011, for example, 1.1 million circumcisions were performed; even granting more than one hundred deaths related to circumcision, pushing 175 let's say, the percentage comes out to something like .016%. And considering the amount of competing factors, including anesthesia, you can't necessarily reduce the cause of death to circumcision.

Finally, a cursory glance suggests that circumcision is dwindling as a practice here in the U.S. Seems to have gone down significantly even since 2011, and apparently is practiced more in rural areas than in urban areas.

So, I learned something. Still don't buy this as an example of female privilege though.

 

[CiG]

Keep in mind that link only deals with circumcision-related deaths. I think the negative aspects of circumcision would be amplified if we also included non-fatal complications. Add to that the fact that the benefits are rather small and achievable via other not-so-permanent methods.

Most botched circumcisions appear to happen outside the U.S., from what I can tell, and by unlicensed or poorly educated practitioners. The vast majority of circumcisions in America occur in hospitals and are administered by health professionals.

Fair point.

Still don't buy this as an example of female privilege though.

Consider it a case of male disadvantage then.

Finally, a cursory glance suggests that circumcision is dwindling as a practice here in the U.S. Seems to have gone down significantly even since 2011, and apparently is practiced more in rural areas than in urban areas.

Glad to hear it! Considering how the politically left tends to swell in more urban areas, it could be that this is an achievement of the activist left, if it's true, kudos.

 

[CiG]

By the way, you should be glad that the only right I believe women have and men don't in the west is dwindling slowly but surely into non-existence. Few more years and my argument eats itself.

 

[Dak]

I think one right that women have that men don't is to have a say in what happens to a jointly created baby/fetus/etc. If a woman wants to keep a baby that the father does not want, in the current socioeconomic/legal environment, the father shouldnt bear responsibility for a choice that wasn't his.

 

[-CC-]

Then by way of apology, I'll just say that I understand your point about allowing the choice vs. foreclosing it. \

Foreclosing...a foreskin debate. Heh. Hehehe

 

[Satanstoenail]

 

[CiG]

Metzitzah B'Peh is fucking disgusting.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Funny how much higher is my tolerance for Saw movies than for conversations about circum...whatever.

As well as my tolerance for *any fucking other topic* with political implications. By a quick glance at this page, it appears that there are enough good samaritans concerned about this issue that justice has a promising chance of eventually being served, whatever that justice might entail. Seeing as how I have no further "skin" in this game, however, I prefer to leave the details for others to work out.

 

[Einherjar86]

I think one right that women have that men don't is to have a say in what happens to a jointly created baby/fetus/etc. If a woman wants to keep a baby that the father does not want, in the current socioeconomic/legal environment, the father shouldnt bear responsibility for a choice that wasn't his.

I think this is probably an easier topic to debate than circumcision. Not sure how I feel, deserves to be critiqued more.

I realize that my radical academic side is going to show, but when I think of disadvantages for women in modern society I think primarily of cultural expectations that have serious consequences on how women "succeed" in the workplace. In short, there is still a very strong tendency in this country to see ambitious men as good role models, hard workers, successful, etc., while we tend to perceive ambitious women as incorrigible shrews, "nasty women," bad mothers, etc.

I'm sure that plenty of people will roll their eyes at this, but I think these kinds of cultural perceptions are as damaging as legal matters; they're just damaging in different ways. Women can certainly be successful in the workplace - to a point, and as long as they make certain concessions. So, to phrase this differently, a woman cannot be both a good mother and ambitious, or hard-working and kind. In more extreme cases, careers preclude families, politeness precludes promotion...

Many of these examples will be rejected as character attributes that can be altered, whereas legality is at play no matter what the characters involved are like (for the most part). But when it comes to issues of financial success and independence, I think that men have the (not so clear) advantage.

 

[CiG]

That's not so radical or disagreeable, I don't think.

I think that's a cultural perception that is disintegrating rapidly though.

I think one right that women have that men don't is to have a say in what happens to a jointly created baby/fetus/etc. If a woman wants to keep a baby that the father does not want, in the current socioeconomic/legal environment, the father shouldnt bear responsibility for a choice that wasn't his.

I think this position depends entirely upon ones position in regards to abortion, as in whether you think abortion should even be filed under choice.

But assuming you're pro-abortion, I think it's still quite an easy discussion to have. Any time a man puts his penis inside of a woman, fundamentally he has made the choice to gamble on becoming a father.

I've noticed a lot lately that the basic fact that having sex presupposes the chance of pregnancy is basically forgotten by people. There really is no such thing as a surprise pregnancy if you really drill down to the act, unless of course you're so badly educated you don't know how babies are made.

So in my opinion, the man and woman do choose whether they have a child or not by having sex in the first place. After that, it's hard to argue that the man should have a say in whether an abortion is conducted if one takes the position that it's her body her choice.

This all becomes moot if both people are anti-abortion though and thus goes back to the choice being equal because both people know pre-sex that sex is the act of choosing to gamble on parenthood.

 

[rms]

the problem is sex is separated into pleasure and procreation. Until this is no longer separated, it clearly is not an action to create a child.

Her body her choice is fine, but her body, her choice, im financially responsible is another thing

 

[CiG]

It may not be an action intended to make a child, but it is an action that is absolutely intended to risk it.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

 

[rms]

Milo live at 9PM EST tonight if you probably want to see some feminists triggered at CU Boulder;

 

[Dak]

4chan antifa whining

Ironically it takes Antifas make me appreciate jackboots.

 

[Baroque]

I'm cut bro, I'm clearly a posterchild of the effects of sexual mutilation. Anecdotally, I have never had pleasurable physical sensation in upper glans penis other than a tiny strip of frenulum that remained after circumcision. You can find many reports of similar from men that were cut; usually done for reasons like phimosis, so it's not like there's a lot of choice, but there's still a significant loss in sensation.

Last I heard you knocked up your insane ex-wife like an idiot and were bitching about child support payments. Did daddy come home and start making big decisions, or is daddy just regretful that he was too uninvolved to prevent his ex from mutilating his son?

I'm circumcised and I feel plenty of pleasure. They must have done yours wrong. I won't share information about my son other than to say you're wrong.

 

[CiG]

If they did it wrong, that's just another point against it.

Milo live at 9PM EST tonight if you probably want to see some feminists triggered at CU Boulder;

I don't know if I can actually bear to watch him anymore, maybe someone will compile the funny parts so I can skip all the drivel.

 

[Dak]

I think this is probably an easier topic to debate than circumcision. Not sure how I feel, deserves to be critiqued more.

I realize that my radical academic side is going to show, but when I think of disadvantages for women in modern society I think primarily of cultural expectations that have serious consequences on how women "succeed" in the workplace. In short, there is still a very strong tendency in this country to see ambitious men as good role models, hard workers, successful, etc., while we tend to perceive ambitious women as incorrigible shrews, "nasty women," bad mothers, etc.

I'm sure that plenty of people will roll their eyes at this, but I think these kinds of cultural perceptions are as damaging as legal matters; they're just damaging in different ways. Women can certainly be successful in the workplace - to a point, and as long as they make certain concessions. So, to phrase this differently, a woman cannot be both a good mother and ambitious, or hard-working and kind. In more extreme cases, careers preclude families, politeness precludes promotion...

Many of these examples will be rejected as character attributes that can be altered, whereas legality is at play no matter what the characters involved are like (for the most part). But when it comes to issues of financial success and independence, I think that men have the (not so clear) advantage.

I'm not sure how this relates directly to my point. I do agree that you cannot "have it all" and that goes for both men and women.

I think this position depends entirely upon ones position in regards to abortion, as in whether you think abortion should even be filed under choice.

But assuming you're pro-abortion, I think it's still quite an easy discussion to have. Any time a man puts his penis inside of a woman, fundamentally he has made the choice to gamble on becoming a father.

I've noticed a lot lately that the basic fact that having sex presupposes the chance of pregnancy is basically forgotten by people. There really is no such thing as a surprise pregnancy if you really drill down to the act, unless of course you're so badly educated you don't know how babies are made.

So in my opinion, the man and woman do choose whether they have a child or not by having sex in the first place. After that, it's hard to argue that the man should have a say in whether an abortion is conducted if one takes the position that it's her body her choice.

This all becomes moot if both people are anti-abortion though and thus goes back to the choice being equal because both people know pre-sex that sex is the act of choosing to gamble on parenthood.

While it's true that sex in a vacuum presupposes the possibility, that's not the current contingent reality. Most contraceptive options are in female hands, and no one likes condoms and vasectomies are not nearly as simple an option as BC pills or a shot.

It's pretty hard to argue that a woman should have to carry a child she doesn't want, within a sociolegal environment that allows abortion. Why isn't it equally hard to argue a man should have to support a child he didn't want? We are talking about 9 months vs 26 years (now).

Morally I'm opposed to abortion except in the instances of incest/rape, which is like <1% of abortions in the US. However, I don't know the best approach in policy terms outside of the fact that I don't think it should be subsidized.

Her body her choice is fine, but her body, her choice, im financially responsible is another thing

Precisely. "Her choice, your responsibility" is bullshit. In addition, "Her choice, taxpayer responsibility" is also bullshit.

I'm circumcised and I feel plenty of pleasure.

Gotta agree here. I don't think I could stand more pleasure and I'm cut like the majority of my generation.

 

[Satanstoenail]

So Tom Araya posted a pretty lame photoshopped pic of Slayer with Trump giving the horns on instagram and social media has gone into meltdown:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/n...on-donald-trump-instagram-controversy-w463047

 

[CiG]

Saw that. Pretty pathetic reactions by most people.