If Mort Divine ruled the world

[CiG]

Legally enforced abortion rights for men seems a little strange, though I fully take Dak's point on the burden men face even though they don't have a choice once a pregnancy has begun.

I think if you're going to have sex with a woman, you should know beforehand where she stands on abortion and she should know where you stand.

This is why I have little sympathy for these scenarios. The sex is for fun mentality has prevailed so much that people have sex without knowing essential beliefs about their partner and act like putting a penis in a vagina is not how we breed.

We can derail the point with questions like rms' about going outside, but you can't deny the fact that sex risks pregnancy and we should all know this prior to sex.

 

[arg]

That's all well and good about knowing that sex risks pregnancy, not to be irresponsible and use contraception, etc

The question is "what do we do now that she's been knocked up?"

Government force to prevent doctors from providing a paid service?

Make no mistake I think it's disgusting and they should be labeled as sluts and baby killers

but it absolutely must be allowed in the name of both freedom and fiscal conservatism and do it ASAP before the fetus develops too much

 

[Einherjar86]

I think if you're going to have sex with a woman, you should know beforehand where she stands on abortion and she should know where you stand.

"Look, I know we just met, and I think you're really hot... but if you get pregnant you'll get rid of it, right?"

Make no mistake I think it's disgusting and they should be labeled as sluts and baby killers

Funny, that's exactly how most of us think of you.

 

[CiG]

"Look, I know we just met, and I think you're really hot... but if you get pregnant you'll get rid of it, right?"

It's worth getting to know someone before you risk paying child support to them for 18+ years. Sex is awesome, but being a total dumb ass has impacts beyond yourself, like your potential future child who is now being raised by two clowns that didn't even converse before sex.

My mother had a random drunken one night stand in the late 90's with a man who was only on holiday in Australia and now I have a younger sister who has no idea where her father is from or who he is.

 

[Dak]

I disagree that it's 100% on males, there are females who don't believe in abortion and will carry a child under any circumstance. There are many males who won't provide child support for those kids and the changes to the woman's body, the time investment etc etc. There's also pressure from family members/friends to not have an abortion. Since you used such general terms " the risk of engaging in sex" we could also talk about stds and other topics but I won't go there. I don't know what you mean by they're not tasked with a responsibility? They're tasked with either taking care of the child or arranging to have it aborted.

I'm talking about the current social/economic/legal environment, not personal convictions which lead people to the decision they end up making. I don't care why the seeder and the egger make their respective decisions, and it in fact does not matter what the seeder decides, yet the seeder is 100% on the financial hook if the egger decides they want it. This is absolutely unethical.

But who will provide the tiebreaking vote?

Game theory: Whoever has the tiebreaker is the only one who matters. And currently it is the egger.

 

[Dak]

https://qz.com/896065/donald-trumps...e-and-american-consumers-would-foot-the-bill/

LOL, suddenly liberals are free marketeers. Thanks, Trump!

 

[Baroque]

I'm talking about the current social/economic/legal environment, not personal convictions which lead people to the decision they end up making. I don't care why the seeder and the egger make their respective decisions, and it in fact does not matter what the seeder decides, yet the seeder is 100% on the financial hook if the egger decides they want it. This is absolutely unethical.

"100% on the financial hook" is incorrect, he's around 50% on the financial hook if he's a decent person who visits with his kids, and depending on how much mom makes it can be less. I'm against child support in some scenarios but let's be honest and speak facts here.

Game theory: Whoever has the tiebreaker is the only one who matters. And currently it is the egger.

My question is/was what is your solution? Give the man the tiebreaker so he's the only one who matters? Or a third party is the tiebreaker?

 

[Dak]

"100% on the financial hook" is incorrect, he's around 50% on the financial hook if he's a decent person who visits with his kids, and depending on how much mom makes it can be less. I'm against child support in some scenarios but let's be honest and speak facts here.

The other 50% is made up by the taxpayer, which often doesn't include the egger.

My question is/was what is your solution? Give the man the tiebreaker so he's the only one who matters? Or a third party is the tiebreaker?

i'm not saying there is a solution if we don't change the balance between rights and responsibility.

 

[rms]

https://qz.com/896065/donald-trumps...e-and-american-consumers-would-foot-the-bill/

LOL, suddenly liberals are free marketeers. Thanks, Trump!

haha, I am seeing this phenomenon on my facebook feed already..

 

[Dak]

"It's insulting to the people who fought and died in the 50's and 60's to claim that things are just as bad now"

 

[Einherjar86]

"It's insulting to the people who fought and died in the 50's and 60's to claim that things are just as bad now"

A) it isn't as bad today as it was prior to the 1960s, and not many people would claim that it is; and

B) if it actually was as bad today as prior to the 1960s, then I wouldn't care if anyone found it insulting.

I'm unmoved by financially comfortable African Americans dismissing contemporary racial criticisms just because they don't happen to be affected personally.

 

[Dak]

I'm unmoved by financially comfortable African Americans dismissing contemporary racial criticisms just because they don't happen to be affected personally.

Because they were always financially comfortable?

Elder was born in 1952, the second of Randolph and Viola Conley Elder's three sons.[citation needed] At the time, the family lived in the largely Latino Pico-Union district of Los Angeles. Elder's father, Randolph, was on his own from the age of 13 and worked a variety of jobs. He enlisted in the military and served as a cook in the Philippines during World War II. Following the end of the war, he was refused employment as a short-order cook many times because he had no references.

Elder's father moved to California and worked several jobs at once to support his family. He also attended night school to earn his GED. By his early forties he had saved enough to open his own café, which he successfully owned and operated near downtown Los Angeles for 30 years. On his radio show, Elder said about his father: "A tougher life I have rarely come across. Yet he never hated, he was never bitter, he never condemned his circumstances, and he always said there are very few problems that cannot be solved through hard work." Elder told a Reason interviewer in 1996 that his father was his role model: "He was the hardest working man I've ever known.... He had a work ethic that was beyond belief."[29]

In 2013, Larry Elder and his brother Kirk accepted a Congressional Gold Medal from U.S. Representative Dana Rohrabacher on their father's behalf.[30]

I'm likewise unmoved by financially comfortable AA complaining about systemic racism being the reason everyone can't have the life they and their parents have enjoyed.

 

[Einherjar86]

No, not because they were always financially comfortable. But just because one person happens to find success is by no means evidence that everyone can do so.

I'm really over all this complaining about why so many people can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

 

[Dak]

I'm really over all this complaining about why so many people can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Similarly, many are over complaints of racism as to why people can't find success.

I'm not saying everyone is capable of bootstrapping themselves to success. I am saying that the reasons someone can't find success has little to nothing to do with racism, and the fact that many many many minorities, including AAs, find success is a major point of proof among many.

 

[rms]

gotta admit that every black republican sounds like a brainwashed fox news viewer though. they use the same buzzwords, phrases etc. bleh

 

[Dak]

Sounds like a lotta Whitesplainin

Not to engage in credentialism, but I dare say Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas, and Larry Elder have the experience and education to be considered more seriously than Sean Hannity, etc.

 

[rms]

maybe, but I don't see those dudes out there

 

[Einherjar86]

Similarly, many are over complaints of racism as to why people can't find success.

You know, it was never as though systemic racism was an explanation that was actually accepted or even entertained by the right, or by any mildly libertarian thinker. The spin on the conversation today often insists that we've tried the systemic explanation and it hasn't panned out - that it's been shoved down our throats. I don't think that's the case at all. I think that those opposed have been opposed from the beginning, and I think it boils down to an offense against their sensibilities, which doesn't translate into critical thought or dialogue.

Long story short, the racism explanation has never been properly entertained, much less understood. I don't care if people are sick of it.

 

[Dak]

You know, it was never as though systemic racism was an explanation that was actually accepted or even entertained by the right, or by any mildly libertarian thinker. The spin on the conversation today often insists that we've tried the systemic explanation and it hasn't panned out - that it's been shoved down our throats. I don't think that's the case at all. I think that those opposed have been opposed from the beginning, and I think it boils down to an offense against their sensibilities, which doesn't translate into critical thought or dialogue.

Long story short, the racism explanation has never been properly entertained, much less understood. I don't care if people are sick of it.

It hasn't been entertained in decades because it is an accusation offered sans or even in spite of the evidence. So much for empiricism or critical thought. Critical thought isn't simply engaging in thought experiments and stopping when we find a pleasant possibility or when evidence ends its validation. Systemic racism in the last several decades could easily be filed under "Alternative Facts".

 

[Einherjar86]

The evidence is ample. All you need is the history we have.