If Mort Divine ruled the world

I said "trickery" because I was making an analogy. It isn't trickery, because consent has nothing to do with the situation. It isn't a premise we can include.

I can go into a huge discussion on this, but I honestly think that if the threat of bestiality is the best critique you guys have of alternative gender identifications then you have bigger problems you need to solve.
 
So wait I can't compare fucking humans to dogs? wtf? that's specist. OK, dogs, no, they're our loyal friends and have been victims of our culture. But I can fuck a chimp all I want. That's like genes and science and shit
 
First, when we're talking about people identifying as different genders, they're having sexual intercourse with other people who identify accordingly and who consent to sexual intercourse. With bestiality, the premise of consent is out of the question.

The laws against bestiality and pedophilia have to do with a reasonable ability for consent

consent has nothing to do with the situation. It isn't a premise we can include.

It doesn't? It isn't? On what grounds (and you said the opposite)? Sounds like human privilege talking. Humansplaining. Speciesist are on the wrong side of history.

I can go into a huge discussion on this, but I honestly think that if the threat of bestiality is the best critique you guys have of alternative gender identifications then you have bigger problems you need to solve.

Beastiality is zero threat at this point if you are quite conservative. The point is merely walking the dog (lolz) on the premises laid out. This isn't even a characterization or reductio ad absurdum. The "you guys have bigger problems" response is a trivialization that speaks to the weakness of the arguments being indirectly challenged. Whether that weakness (or the "threat") is in the anti-beastiality argument or anti-gender argument has already been determined by the protester. Might as well be Chely Wright and accuse all "straight white christian males" of being playground bullies. In short, you just made an ad hominem attack. As far as I can see Progressives will be forced into making the Smart move. Smart, as in JJ Smart.
 
Okay, here we go.

Alternative gender identities take place within a set of social relations dictated among and between fellow human beings, who share linguistic and cognitive similarities. They share histories and biologies, and they communicate in a semantic manner (in addition to other modes).

Humans do not share these same similarities with non-human species. The entire idea of "consent" only makes sense within spheres of human language, intention, and thought, and these things simply don't apply to non-human animals. This isn't to say that human modes of being are better than animals; it's just to say that they are different. There's no human privilege, merely a human perspective. You've always been the first to remind me that I can't get outside my own perspective. Will you deny that now?

When you raise a topic such as bestiality, you imply the question of consent (since we're dealing with human subjects); but you also encounter a problem, since the entire premise of consent only applies within a network involving human agents. Since we have a non-human agent in play, consent cannot be established. And since consent cannot be established, the ethical decision remains the following: DON'T FUCK DOGS.

Let me put it this way. I can approach two human subjects and inquire: "Do you both consent to this proposition?" They will both be able to answer me. Now let's say I approach a human and a horse (or dog, or duck, or gorilla) and ask the same question. I'll get an answer from one, but not from the other. The premise of consent fails.
 
Alternative gender identities take place within a set of social relations dictated among and between fellow human beings, who share linguistic and cognitive similarities. They share histories and biologies, and they communicate in a semantic manner (in addition to other modes).

Humans do not share these same similarities with non-human species. The entire idea of "consent" only makes sense within spheres of human language, intention, and thought, and these things simply don't apply to non-human animals. This isn't to say that human modes of being are better than animals; it's just to say that they are different. There's no human privilege, merely a human perspective. You've always been the first to remind me that I can't get outside my own perspective. Will you deny that now?

So consent is only a human concept. So why would non-humans need to consent? Consent is irrelevant for non-humans. To claim they need to consent but can't is absurd. Consent is indeed "outside" the question. So humans can do whatever with non-humans.

But that isn't acceptable, and hasn't been so since we give animals rights in some countries and probably soon in all countries. Furthermore, animals do discriminate between potential suitors via some accepted format in many instances. So some measure or standard of consent is involved. Given that certain male mammals will mount nearly any other mammal which presents, this indicates broad, measurable, repeatable sexual consent.

the entire premise of consent only applies within a network involving human agents. Since we have a non-human agent in play, consent cannot be established. And since consent cannot be established, the ethical decision remains the following: DON'T FUCK DOGS.

So the argument is that consent requires two humans, and no consent means no sex (ruling out animal sex). How isn't this speciesist ie: How doesn't this rule out all animal rights?

I can approach two human subjects and inquire: "Do you both consent to this proposition?" They will both be able to answer me. Now let's say I approach a human and a horse (or dog, or duck, or gorilla) and ask the same question. I'll get an answer from one, but not from the other. The premise of consent fails.

This example merely privileges verbal consent, a non-starter even from a perspective of two humans.
 
Based on the way this conversation has gone, that wouldn't surprise me.

Dak, our laws imply the acknowledgement of consent. I'm just saying that if you have an agent for whom consent makes no sense, then you can't expect it to give consent. The law can only treat it as a subject incapable of giving consent.

As I've already said, animals communicate in a manner different from humans. The idea of consent doesn't come into play. They respond to each other differently, and they have sex differently. Stop imposing human concepts and individualism onto non-human animals.
 
I wouldn't say "animal rights," although yes, progressive politicians do. Animal ethics, however, is entirely compatible with what I've been saying.

Now that that's over, I assume we can stop arguing about why we all shouldn't fuck dogs?
 
I wouldn't say "animal rights," although yes, progressive politicians do. Animal ethics, however, is entirely compatible with what I've been saying.

Now that that's over, I assume we can stop arguing about why we all shouldn't fuck dogs?

As long as any future arguments which invoke anthropocentrism and animal rights are off the table, yes.
 
I'm pretty sure that the majority of zoophiles assume the bottom position. Is Fido really not able to consent if he sticks it up my ass if I just bend over in front of him?
 
Off topic, but PsychForums is fucking amazing sometimes.

Re: desperate to be gang raped, what is wrong w me?

Postby Papergirl » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:31 pm
Just wanted to point out something on STDs (since it came up twice in this thread). I must say as a disclaimer that my suggestion that adult theater sex is a satisfying way to address a REAL rape fetish indeed runs a risk of STDs. When I used the word "safe" I was referring to safe from violence, since adult theater troll rape for orgasm, not violence. And they climax very quickly, usually right on first penetration, some even before they penetrate. However, all unprotected intercourse (which is what you'd have to allow to satisfy this craving) runs risk.

But allow me to put that risk into perspective. I have been involved in adult theater sex since age 17 (I'm now 54). That's 37 years. I go about 20 times a year. That's 740 episodes. On a typical episode I will get violated by about 30 males, about 20 of whom will be able to deposit their orgasm in the vagina. And of those 20, about half of them will come back for "seconds". The average male ejaculation emits about 6 mL of semen. Thus, in my 720 episodes over 37 years, my body has absorbed about 130 liters of anonymous unprotected rapist troll semen in the darkness of adult theaters.

That's about 34 gallons, and to this day, I have never caught a single STD. I do, however, know a man who became paraplegic playing rugby. I know a man who broke his back in a motorcycle accident. And I knew a woman who was killed white-water rafting. Yet, no one will ever criticize these recreational activities for their risks ... but recreational sex? I wonder why.
 
I believe you're criticizing the way in which racism is often invoked as an institutional or sytemic problem, rather than a problem of individual "racists." If the latter were the case, then a black person calling a white person "honky" could be classified as racist.

In fact, the idea of racism as systemic precedes poststructuralist thought; it goes all the way back to the social sciences of the 1950s and '60s, and manifests even earlier in the work of certain black thinkers. The upshot of this theoretical approach is that it takes historical effects into account. Now, before people get up in arms about the invocation of history (again, I know), let's clarify a few things:

I'm not blaming white people today for slavery in the nineteenth century, nor am I blaming anybody for lynchings in the early-to-mid-twentieth century. I'm not assigning personal blame to anyone. The very nature of a systemic approach diminishes the importance of individual responsibility. If I'm saying that a black person saying "honky" isn't being racist, then I also can't say that white people today are responsible for slavery. I'm not making any individualist claims.

What history does demonstrate is that racial dynamics have evolved in a very particular way, and this is where we notice the effects of racial inequality.

When the vast majority of black people pass white people on the street, they don't think "Those honkies are going to mug me because they're white"; when the majority of white people walk past a police officer outside a coffee shop, they don't think "that pig is going to give me trouble because I'm white." A black person can absolutely have prejudiced thoughts toward white people, but they will take the form of a relationship that places the white person in power: "I hate those fucking rich white women."

Hell, for the sake of anecdotes, I was once called a snake by a black person on the street. He said to me: "I fucking hate white people. Snakes!" I acknowledge that there is prejudice here; but as soon as you ask yourself why black people say that today the answer becomes quite clear. There isn't evidence for natural animosity between humans of different skin color; this kind of behavior is conditioned.

The reason why certain academics insist on reserving racism strictly for whites (or, more appropriately, Western culture at large) is that it signifies, before all else, a state of conditions in a society. Value gets added later; that is, after we determine the racial dynamics of a society, then people begin to attribute negative or positive qualities to those dynamics. It is at this point that the word racism then attains a use than can describe an individual's behavior - because if an individual commits a specific kind of act that falls under the rubric of racial conditions/dynamics, then we attribute those qualities to that person.

There are a specific set of conditions that have led to the racial dynamics in this country; and while blacks can feel animosity toward whites, social scientists often resist the word "racism" because it doesn't correspond to the general history of those conditions.

In my personal opinion, it's the most scientific and useful means to talk about the situation because it attempts to measure material conditions, not the indeterminable intentions of an individual person.

I know this might seem like a lazy reply, but I can't help but feel like this was just a drawn out way to say "black people being racist is white people's fault" - is that a misinterpretation? It reads like an argument against black autonomy or something.
 
I'm pretty sure that the majority of zoophiles assume the bottom position. Is Fido really not able to consent if he sticks it up my ass if I just bend over in front of him?

That's not consent.

It's really surprising to me that people don't see the anthropomorphism inherent in saying that animals can consent. By doing this, we're trying to make relations between non-human animals into relations between two human beings. They're simply not the same thing.

I'm not denying animals the ability to consent. I'm simply saying that sex between animals is different and follows different patterns and rules than sex between humans. When we say that an animal can consent to sex then we impose a certain set of assumptions and expectations onto them that are closely tied with the history of Enlightenment humanism.

I know this might seem like a lazy reply, but I can't help but feel like this was just a drawn out way to say "black people being racist is white people's fault" - is that a misinterpretation? It reads like an argument against black autonomy or something.

It's no one's fault. I said that above. It isn't a blame game, unless by "white people" you mean an abstract historical institution.

I'm repeating myself here, but I never said we shouldn't hold people today responsible for their actions; I said the exact opposite. I'm not saying that a black person who robs a white person has no autonomy, and I already said that he or she should be held responsible for the act committed.

I'm saying that when we talk about racism, the scene of crime (as it were) extends beyond the minor, individual incidence. We can hold people accountable for their actions whilst still acknowledging that certain factors have played a major role in those actions.
 


Yes, the driver is an asshole. But IMO so are the people that covered his car in sticky notes or whatever it is.

A - his car is taking disabled parking spot, if they called and had him towed, the spot would be free sooner, now his car is taking the spot longer

B - his car is not exactly safe and he might be a danger to himself or other road users

C - don't people in Brazil have better things to do?
 
Last edited by a moderator: