If Mort Divine ruled the world

Probably should have been a little more clear on the Soup Nazi thing. It's more of a social depiction of the differences between men and women, and why we hear about not enough STEM women versus the failing job market for men.

I'll probably check out your article later, gotta meander through my library system to download it for free. I knew your answer would be that taxes shouldn't be in the legal system so it seems simply that we disagree on the services that should be offered via the state.

Can't imagine that someone doesn't agree with ending the drug war as well as revamping policing in the 21st century, and not sure how that is going to start. Cutting of funding? Who knows.
 
I'll probably check out your article later, gotta meander through my library system to download it for free. I knew your answer would be that taxes shouldn't be in the legal system so it seems simply that we disagree on the services that should be offered via the state.

Obviously taxes fund the legal system. But gross behavior on the part of government employees shouldn't put the taxpayer on the hook. I've backed off of my anarchic angling I took at one point on the point of practicality, but that doesn't mean I have to embrace a shoddy system as a fallback. Some people like to suggest that the occasional malfeasance "comes with the dinner", but I don't think we have to accept that in every case.
 
I haven't been chiming in myself, but I've been following this and reading it all because it's pretty interesting.
If people are bored by it, I don't see why they can't just ignore it, is it really THAT hard, as adults, to ignore something?

The modern usage is stupid, the idea that racism is only racism if it has power behind it and is systemic is just post-structuralist academic jargon, same with the modern usage of sexism.


Had to find exactly what it was I said about post-structuralism.

My resistance to post-structuralism in this specific sense is the way, for example, feminist theory uses this thought process to morph the meanings of words to fit it's own narrative and once you've done this, anything that contradicts the narrative can then be flipped, reinterpreted and integrated into the narrative because the language has become flimsy and malleable.
An example of this is the way in which feminist theory used to deny the reality of male oppression, but now instead it recognizes this reality but deflects any contradiction by simply expanding the idea of the patriarchy to yes, it hurts men too.
It's a very clever deflection and without post-structuralism creating this climate of endlessly reinterpretive language, much of this would be much harder to get away with in my opinion.

It renders the meaning of certain words that are universal in their meaning and should be unbiased in usage as obsolete and instead redefines them within the terms of the humanities and social sciences.
Sexism and racism only being true if there is power behind them (the sociological definitions to be exact) being my main issue here, specifically because government and society at large is more and more taking these new definitions seriously.

I hope that wasn't too rambling, admittedly I'm not the most eloquent guy around.
 
I think maybe an analogy for our disagreement here would be something akin to I see the Foucaultian argument trying to assert that fuel injection radically altered the automobile to the extent that gasoline was more central to the operation of the engine and/or made the fuel injected cars not cars like cars were previously. The former argument would be wrong as fuel injection decreases the amount of gasoline needed, the latter just lends itself to weird definitional circling.

But I can let it rest.

I'm sorry, I just need to make one final point, which I already stated but feel I need to repeat:

Foucault isn't making an ontological claim as to either side of the argument. He is saying that, around the 18th century, scientists, psychiatrists, and even non-professional individuals began writing about, and asking more questions about, sexuality. These writings took a far different nature than the kind of biblical writings contained in the Torah or the New Testament. He wrote the book because he wanted to know why.

Personally, I think the inherent differences in the endocrine systems facilitate most of what the person is interested in, but I don't know of any arguments against that. And that's where the discussion in these arguments eventually lead to. "Well women pick nurturing careers because that's what the media says they should!" --but I think media enables that behavior rather than change it.

Hormones and other chemicals certainly affect behavior, but the challenge comes in disassociating this behavior from our ingrained cultural values.

There was a TED talk recently that discussed how differences in body posture can alter chemical balances inside the body. For instance, making oneself larger (e.g. spreading or raising your arms, as we do when we win a race) increases testosterone in the body. Of course, there's a connection here: we often associate testosterone with situations in which we experience power, or control. It's easy to then make the leap and say that those who possess more testosterone occupy (and even should occupy) a position of power - since they exhibit more of the power hormone.

We don't need to try and alter the effects of testosterone, but we should ask why we should preserve the cultural value most closely associated with testosterone.

Some people might say that those values are attached for a reason, and even make an evolutionary argument as to the connection between hormones and cultural values; but there are two signal problems and/or fallacies in this.

a) consciousness has been shown to be an evolutionary inhibition by certain sociobiologists. In other words, consciousness has allowed us to create certain tools and have discussions about things :)cool:), but it hasn't necessarily increased our intelligence or improved our survival methods beyond, for instance, the tardigrade. So, if survival is the primary motivator, then privileging certain values that accompany consciousness may not be the best decision.

b) evolution itself is not a process moving from a less preferable to a more preferable state, or to a form of organism better-suited to its environment. I know Dak doesn't agree with this; but even granting the possible influence of external stimuli on genes, these have less impact than the large-scale randomness of genetic mutation and the chance that such mutations prove to be beneficial in certain environments.

In other words, evolutionary selection is overwhelmingly random.

My resistance to post-structuralism in this specific sense is the way, for example, feminist theory uses this thought process to morph the meanings of words to fit it's own narrative and once you've done this, anything that contradicts the narrative can then be flipped, reinterpreted and integrated into the narrative because the language has become flimsy and malleable.
An example of this is the way in which feminist theory used to deny the reality of male oppression, but now instead it recognizes this reality but deflects any contradiction by simply expanding the idea of the patriarchy to yes, it hurts men too.
It's a very clever deflection and without post-structuralism creating this climate of endlessly reinterpretive language, much of this would be much harder to get away with in my opinion.

It renders the meaning of certain words that are universal in their meaning and should be unbiased in usage as obsolete and instead redefines them within the terms of the humanities and social sciences.
Sexism and racism only being true if there is power behind them (the sociological definitions to be exact) being my main issue here, specifically because government and society at large is more and more taking these new definitions seriously.

I hope that wasn't too rambling, admittedly I'm not the most eloquent guy around.

So, I have issues with a lot of this, but I don't want to get too embroiled in too many issues at once.

First things first, I'll just say - and this to me in unequivocal - that there is no such thing as a word that has universal meaning. This position is now supported by a large portion of linguists, not just poststructuralists. If you read language philosophy by Wittgenstein, or Daniel Dennett, or J.L. Austin, or Stanley Cavell, you'll find that all of them insist that the meaning of words resides in their use, not in any absolute or original meaning.
 
First things first, I'll just say - and this to me in unequivocal - that there is no such thing as a word that has universal meaning. This position is now supported by a large portion of linguists, not just poststructuralists. If you read language philosophy by Wittgenstein, or Daniel Dennett, or J.L. Austin, or Stanley Cavell, you'll find that all of them insist that the meaning of words resides in their use, not in any absolute or original meaning.

I understand that language is fluid, I meant universal in the sense that racism and sexism should apply to all races and sexes, not just the privileged races and sexes.
 
I understand that language is fluid, I meant universal in the sense that racism and sexism should apply to all races and sexes, not just the privileged races and sexes.

I believe you're criticizing the way in which racism is often invoked as an institutional or sytemic problem, rather than a problem of individual "racists." If the latter were the case, then a black person calling a white person "honky" could be classified as racist.

In fact, the idea of racism as systemic precedes poststructuralist thought; it goes all the way back to the social sciences of the 1950s and '60s, and manifests even earlier in the work of certain black thinkers. The upshot of this theoretical approach is that it takes historical effects into account. Now, before people get up in arms about the invocation of history (again, I know), let's clarify a few things:

I'm not blaming white people today for slavery in the nineteenth century, nor am I blaming anybody for lynchings in the early-to-mid-twentieth century. I'm not assigning personal blame to anyone. The very nature of a systemic approach diminishes the importance of individual responsibility. If I'm saying that a black person saying "honky" isn't being racist, then I also can't say that white people today are responsible for slavery. I'm not making any individualist claims.

What history does demonstrate is that racial dynamics have evolved in a very particular way, and this is where we notice the effects of racial inequality.

When the vast majority of black people pass white people on the street, they don't think "Those honkies are going to mug me because they're white"; when the majority of white people walk past a police officer outside a coffee shop, they don't think "that pig is going to give me trouble because I'm white." A black person can absolutely have prejudiced thoughts toward white people, but they will take the form of a relationship that places the white person in power: "I hate those fucking rich white women."

Hell, for the sake of anecdotes, I was once called a snake by a black person on the street. He said to me: "I fucking hate white people. Snakes!" I acknowledge that there is prejudice here; but as soon as you ask yourself why black people say that today the answer becomes quite clear. There isn't evidence for natural animosity between humans of different skin color; this kind of behavior is conditioned.

The reason why certain academics insist on reserving racism strictly for whites (or, more appropriately, Western culture at large) is that it signifies, before all else, a state of conditions in a society. Value gets added later; that is, after we determine the racial dynamics of a society, then people begin to attribute negative or positive qualities to those dynamics. It is at this point that the word racism then attains a use than can describe an individual's behavior - because if an individual commits a specific kind of act that falls under the rubric of racial conditions/dynamics, then we attribute those qualities to that person.

There are a specific set of conditions that have led to the racial dynamics in this country; and while blacks can feel animosity toward whites, social scientists often resist the word "racism" because it doesn't correspond to the general history of those conditions.

In my personal opinion, it's the most scientific and useful means to talk about the situation because it attempts to measure material conditions, not the indeterminable intentions of an individual person.
 
I'm not sure I know what you mean, but let me clarify quickly:

I'm not saying that a systemic approach actively reduces individual roles and responsibilities now, as we speak. Someone can still be held accountable for his or her own prejudices, especially if they lead to abhorrent behavior.

I would say we can effectively differentiate between holding people accountable now, today, and analyzing a set of conditions that have become largely systemic and culturally unconscious over the course of historical development. This has less to do with letting black criminals off the hook (which, if we're being honest, does not happen) than it does with trying to come to enforce certain material policies that would lead to new cultural attitudes in the centuries to come.
 
So if you identify as a dog (ie dogkin) and then you fuck a dog, is it beastiality?

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So if you identify as a dog (ie dogkin) and then you fuck a dog, is it beastiality?

Yes, it is still bestiality, and comparing the two is fallacious beyond reasonable expectations (seriously, how do you get that question from anything I've said?). First, when we're talking about people identifying as different genders, they're having sexual intercourse with other people who identify accordingly and who consent to sexual intercourse. With bestiality, the premise of consent is out of the question. The laws against bestiality and pedophilia have to do with a reasonable ability for consent, and simple identitarian lusts/drives don't trump this ethical necessity.

Second, as I have already said, we should still hold people accountable for their actions as they commit them. If a starving black man kills a white person so he can still his money to buy food, we should still accuse him of murder. I'm not advocating letting people off the hook for unethical acts simply because of identitarian claims. I'm saying that racial histories may very well play a role in why a hypothetical black person kills a white person for money, and that these histories are beyond individual choice or intention.
 
Beastiality proponents stridently disagree over the consent issue. They say that it is only verbal consent that is not possible, and that an animal can still consent in a non-verbal manner. The age issue is also different, because animals age differently. So, pedophilia is wrong because of age/maturity issues, so you don't get down with puppies, but an "adult" dog can consent.
 
Beastiality proponents stridently disagree over the consent issue. They say that it is only verbal consent that is not possible, and that an animal can still consent in a non-verbal manner. The age issue is also different, because animals age differently. So, pedophilia is wrong because of age/maturity issues, so you don't get down with puppies, but an "adult" dog can consent.
:lol:
 
Yes, Dak is right; but the bestiality people aren't. Seriously, are we going to get into an argument over consent...?

A portion of of the beastiality scene is women presenting for and subsequently being mounted by male animals. How can one claim the animal didn't consent? It doesn't know the word "consent" so therefore it can't consent? It couldn't tell the difference between humans and its own species? It can't grasp human morality? It couldn't have the female sign a legal release? Etc.
 
Animals in heat respond to positions and to other animals in heat. It doesn't have to do with telling the difference, to them. It's basically like tricking them into having sex.
 
Animals in heat respond to positions and to other animals in heat. It doesn't have to do with telling the difference, to them. It's basically like tricking them into having sex.

This seems very contradictory. If it doesn't have to do with telling a difference, where's the trickery? I mean, if the woman is in a dog costume I could buy it, but is that really the norm? Based on the "donkey show" stories I heard from Mexico, there's no costume trickery going on.