In dire need of your metal mixing advice

[Bob Savage]

O.K. guys, I'm finding that with heavier tunes, the mix is kicking my arse. I'm having a heck of a time getting enough seperation to keep the mix clean and without mud. Would you guys mind taking a listen to this short little diddy and letting me know what you think I'm doing wrong (in your opinion, of course), and where you would go with a mix for this type of tune?

Thanks in advance.

Lifted - The mix is kicking my butt edition

 

[guitarguru777]

Im not as trained as the rest of the guys but im going to give this a shot. Its either the bass or the Kick. Now that the parts switched to the 1st mini solo and back to the main riff. Its definitely the bass. I would say ... this is a total guess, but some where int he lower mids the bass is woofing out, try cutting some of the lower mids on the bass. Was it recorded direct or Mic'd Cause when the riff changes to the hgher key it sounds like the muddyness goes away. It could be the way you recorded the bass.

Thats how it sounds to my noob ears ...

Let the pros listen see what they say .... Hopefully everything im learning here is paying off .... let me know guys ...lol

Da Fukn Noob !!!!!!!

 

[Ermz]

Your low-end is what's really getting messed up in there. It sounds like the kick, the bass and the guitars are all fighting for it. Try scooping the kick from 150Hz to 700hz or so. The guitars should be high-passed... I usually high pass at like 80-100Hz and then multiband compress 65 to 280Hz (thanks Andy).

Try muting the bass and seeing how the track sounds without it... is all the mud cleared up? To me it just sounds like the guitars seem to be going lower than they should and everything's fighting.

 

[Bob Savage]

Thanks for the input guitarguru.

Your low-end is what's really getting messed up in there. It sounds like the kick, the bass and the guitars are all fighting for it. Try scooping the kick from 150Hz to 700hz or so. The guitars should be high-passed... I usually high pass at like 80-100Hz and then multiband compress 65 to 280Hz (thanks Andy).

Try muting the bass and seeing how the track sounds without it... is all the mud cleared up? To me it just sounds like the guitars seem to be going lower than they should and everything's fighting.

I did highpass the guitars somewhere around 100 Hz (don't have access to my DAW right now). I'll checkout the kick scoop. How do you go about the scoop, do you set it around 450Hz and then set the Q so it's affecting the freq's from 150-700, or do you use another method?

I'll make a note of the highpass and multiband too, thanks for the tip.

I do think the bass is a large part of the problem. I recorded direct via a Radial Engineering DI (good DI, AFAIK) into an RME Fireface, then used Amplitube (I really dislike it, but the bass needed an "amp"...) and some slight eq'ing.

 

[neverpurify]

Hey Bob, I have tried using amplitube for a bass amp too. I think I do better just plugging the bass direct in and using some waves plugins for the bass sound. I find with a little EQing and maybe something like the RBass plugin that I can get decent results.

 

[Bob Savage]

Hey Bob, I have tried using amplitube for a bass amp too. I think I do better just plugging the bass direct in and using some waves plugins for the bass sound. I find with a little EQing and maybe something like the RBass plugin that I can get decent results.

I tend to agree with you, and that's how I used to do my bass tracks. I'd go direct and then throw some compression, EQ and maybe a tape and/or tube channel emulation, and be done with it. I've got a friend who has good results using Amplitube on bass, but his ear is better than mine, not to mention he's been a mixing engineer for the last 20 years.

I think I'll remove Amplitube and use my old approach to see how much mud is eliminated.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Bob Savage]

Lots of views, very little input. Maybe I should post this question in the "forum is being watered down" thread.

 

[neverpurify]

I think most people probably agree with the opinions already stated. Try changing the bass and maybe the frequencies of the bass/kick drum and repost and maybe you can get more insight.

 

[Bob Savage]

I think most people probably agree with the opinions already stated. Try changing the bass and maybe the frequencies of the bass/kick drum and repost and maybe you can get more insight.

Thanks for the reply. That possibility did occur to me, but I didn't want to assume it.

 

[evildonkeymaster]

Well it depends on what you are trying to get to "stick" out of the mud. If it is the snare (I keep losing it as I listen) it could be that the "room/overhead/ambient" channels (not sure what you used) are turned up too loud and the snare track is phasing out. Try flipping the phase on the snare track then solo the OH and the Snare together flip it in mono and see if it stays loud or disappears. Oh and the cymbals and/or room mics sound great man what did you use and where did you record the drums. If they are samples I am fucking nuts ha ha.

Also the compression on the snare may not be set to capture the snap at full volume.

If it is the kick you want to clear up (I can hear it but if feels more like a rock kick then a metal kick) then you need to EQ it like a metal kick. Try pulling the EQ down at like 200-300 (choose a band maybe start at 250) about -15dbs at a fairly wide Q. then pull a high shelf at about 7500HZ about 10 db and finally search for the click (between 3500-8000) at a tight Q about 1 or 2 dbs above the high shelf. Now this is not a for sure setting but it is a starting place for a nice clear metal kick.

If it is the rumbly hum in the low end you are concerned with I am 99% sure it is the Bass. toooooo much low end on that bad ass. You can really really tell when the second riff kicks in that the bass is driving the mud. If you filter out everything but the 60-90hz range (the highest peak in db of the whole mix) 70% of it is bass 20% is kick 10% is rhythm guitars. Fix the bass and solve the boomy overall sound.

 

[Bob Savage]

Well it depends on what you are trying to get to "stick" out of the mud. If it is the snare (I keep losing it as I listen) it could be that the "room/overhead/ambient" channels (not sure what you used) are turned up too loud and the snare track is phasing out. Try flipping the phase on the snare track then solo the OH and the Snare together flip it in mono and see if it stays loud or disappears. Oh and the cymbals and/or room mics sound great man what did you use and where did you record the drums. If they are samples I am fucking nuts ha ha.

I noticed that with the snare too and would actually like it to be a bit more present, but thought it was just getting buried because of the overall dynamics of the tune, however, thanks for the tip, I'll take a listen to the phase, although when the bus I have drums going through is solo'd, there's no loss of snare.

The OH's were miced with a pair of MC012's, and recorded in a patio room at my house. I hung piano blankets to create a "room" about 15'x10', with no blankets at the face of the drums.

Also the compression on the snare may not be set to capture the snap at full volume.

I'm going to need to start playing with compression more. I find that by the time I'm done tweaking the compressor, I've destroyed the attack and sound of the instrument.

If it is the kick you want to clear up (I can hear it but if feels more like a rock kick then a metal kick) then you need to EQ it like a metal kick. Try pulling the EQ down at like 200-300 (choose a band maybe start at 250) about -15dbs at a fairly wide Q. then pull a high shelf at about 7500HZ about 10 db and finally search for the click (between 3500-8000) at a tight Q about 1 or 2 dbs above the high shelf. Now this is not a for sure setting but it is a starting place for a nice clear metal kick.

I do want the kick to sound a bit more "metal," but wasn't sure how to get there. This kit is a vintage Rogers set, so it's not "metal" to begin with. The EQ may just do it for me!

I'd like a bit more beater sound too and have a question about that. Is it common to place a mic on the beater side too so that there's a lot of that click (I know phase could be a big problem...), or is it common practice to just mic inside the kick(s) and use a sound replacer and add samples to bring in the beater, bottom end, etc.?

If it is the rumbly hum in the low end you are concerned with I am 99% sure it is the Bass. toooooo much low end on that bad ass. You can really really tell when the second riff kicks in that the bass is driving the mud. If you filter out everything but the 60-90hz range (the highest peak in db of the whole mix) 70% of it is bass 20% is kick 10% is rhythm guitars. Fix the bass and solve the boomy overall sound.

Yeah, there's rumble on the bottom end that to my ears, is causing the groove and percussiveness of the bass/kick to be lost. I'm going to do like I mentioned above and dump the modeler on the bass, then compress and EQ the direct track to see how that sounds.

Thanks for all the input!

 

[NathanSoulfracture]

if you can get a hold of the JCM900 Amp Sim Plug-in try using that for the bass, ive had some good results from it.

 

[evildonkeymaster]

I noticed that with the snare too and would actually like it to be a bit more present, but thought it was just getting buried because of the overall dynamics of the tune, however, thanks for the tip, I'll take a listen to the phase, although when the bus I have drums going through is solo'd, there's no loss of snare.!

Hmmm may not be phase then.

The OH's were miced with a pair of MC012's, and recorded in a patio room at my house. I hung piano blankets to create a "room" about 15'x10', with no blankets at the face of the drums.

Rad, the sound very open air and I dig that.

I'm going to need to start playing with compression more. I find that by the time I'm done tweaking the compressor, I've destroyed the attack and sound of the instrument.

Yep that is what it sounds like . Try setting the threshold at the point where the snare rests before the attack (usually like around -15db or so). Then set the gain reduction like 8:1 or so (this is very agresive though but can give you a ton of snare snap. Next, adjust the attack to the longest time and the release to the shortest. Start pulling the attack back until the snap is dull the back it off a bit. Then push the relase forward until the snare dips in time with the music (watch the reduction meter). Finally boost the "increase in gain" just before it clips. And good freaking luck!

I do want the kick to sound a bit more "metal," but wasn't sure how to get there. This kit is a vintage Rogers set, so it's not "metal" to begin with. The EQ may just do it for me!

It is a good starting point and depending on the mic and placement you used you may get great results.

I'd like a bit more beater sound too and have a question about that. Is it common to place a mic on the beater side too so that there's a lot of that click (I know phase could be a big problem...), or is it common practice to just mic inside the kick(s) and use a sound replacer and add samples to bring in the beater, bottom end, etc.?

Sooooo many options I have tried a bunch, for metal I almost always sound replace the kick even if it is with several samples off the original souce kick drum. A replaced kick is so much clearer and predictable then a mic'd one.

I never need to put a mic on the beater side of the kick to get the attack it is all MIC selection, placement and EQ for me.

Yeah, there's rumble on the bottom end that to my ears, is causing the groove and percussiveness of the bass/kick to be lost. I'm going to do like I mentioned above and dump the modeler on the bass, then compress and EQ the direct track to see how that sounds.

Thanks for all the input!

Yep that would be my advice too or just leave the Bass as is but cut at about 60-100HZ and compress that mother!

Later
Ross

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

good advice there evildonkeyman, kudos

 

[Bob Savage]

Thanks for all the advice in this thread, especially EvilDonkeyMan. I've been messing with the mix and I do think it's better now using recommendations in this thread, but it's not quite there. I really need to learn how to use compressors better, for one thing. Anyway, I'm going to keep picking at this thing, so thanks again!

 

[Bob Savage]

Oh what the heck, this is what I've got so far. I'm curious what you guys are hearing now, because the clarity is still not there for me, although I think it's closer.

Lifted - The mix is STILL kicking my butt edition

 

[evildonkeymaster]

Oh what the heck, this is what I've got so far. I'm curious what you guys are hearing now, because the clarity is still not there for me, although I think it's closer.

Lifted - The mix is STILL kicking my butt edition

Will you do me a favor (just so I can hear what is going on) and mute the bass out of your mix completly and repost the mix. I have a hunch the bass is your clarity culprit. I think you need to sound replace the kick with a much tighter and clearer metal kick too. But for now just post it minus the bass so I can hear what it is covering.
Thanks, and thats evildonkeyMASTER to you ha ha. Check the screen name on my posts you can call me Ross though.

 

[Bob Savage]

Will you do me a favor (just so I can hear what is going on) and mute the bass out of your mix completly and repost the mix. I have a hunch the bass is your clarity culprit. I think you need to sound replace the kick with a much tighter and clearer metal kick too. But for now just post it minus the bass so I can hear what it is covering.
Thanks, and thats evildonkeyMASTER to you ha ha. Check the screen name on my posts you can call me Ross though.

LOL!!! Dang it, I saw the other guy make the moniker name mistake and said to myself, "self, you're not going to call him donkeyman like that other dude did, you're going to call him by his real moniker," then I did it anyway.

Here it is: http://junk.bobsavage.net/Lifted-nobass.mp3

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

I did that on purpose ya ninnies

 

[evildonkeymaster]

I did that on purpose ya ninnies

hahaha I figured that.

Anyhooo Back to Bob's mix. Ok man now with out the Bass I have decided a few things.

1) The Bass tone is what is causing you too loose clarity in the guitars. They are so much clearer without. So you realy gotta work on the bass EQ so it does not compete with the guitars.

2) You have to replace that kick drum with a better sounding sample set. If you did the EQ I suggested and it still sounds that flat you are not going to get a clear metal kick out of that drum.

3) Snare pops a bit more with the bass out but I think you need to work on the compression it gets lost in the mix.

All in all I bet if you sound replace the kick and fix the Bass EQ you will be really suprised with how your mix will sound.

Are those guitars Bogner heads? I checked out your web page. If so what kind? and what guitars?

Later
Ross