IN FLAMES Clayman Re-recorded 2020

[The Grayfox]

Sounds like Anders was being a dick in this situation tbh.

Anders can carry kind of an arrogant attitude at times from what I've seen. I've met him and he was nice, but he did appear a little standoffish. All I know is, I saw them in San Francisco and In Flames had plenty of room on stage. Obviously I can't speak for any of the other dates, but back in '02, it's not like In Flames and Iced Earth were headlining arenas in America. The venues were all small clubs, so there's going to be limited stage space regardless. The headline band always gets the most room for the drum kit, props, etc. If anything, it sounds like Anders should've been pissed at their own management/label for booking them as a support band. I wonder if he was also pissed that there was no caviar in his dressing room.

 

[DE4life]

Anders can carry kind of an arrogant attitude at times from what I've seen. I've met him and he was nice, but he did appear a little standoffish. All I know is, I saw them in San Francisco and In Flames had plenty of room on stage. Obviously I can't speak for any of the other dates, but back in '02, it's not like In Flames and Iced Earth were headlining arenas in America. The venues were all small clubs, so there's going to be limited stage space regardless. The headline band always gets the most room for the drum kit, props, etc. If anything, it sounds like Anders should've been pissed at their own management/label for booking them as a support band. I wonder if he was also pissed that there was no caviar in his dressing room.

Without being there it's hard to draw a definitive conclusion, but Jag Panzer were in the same situation and it sounds like they just accepted it and got on with things. I think In Flames were probably used to being treated like the golden boys at the time because they were on the rise in the States and around the world, were getting big reactions everywhere, and so on. I guess being treated like a normal support band irked them (or at least Anders) and they/Anders didn't deal with the situation in the best way. Judging by that rant they posted towards their fans in Jan 2002 they were becoming a little arrogant. You kind of see it with their later comments about Ozzfest as well, saying it "sucks" and how they should have had a better slot. Again, just make the best with what you have and don't start burning bridges by coming out with disparaging public comments. As you say it's not like they were huge in the States during that time period.

 

[Pallbearer]

As for the statement about "narrow minded fans", to be fair I can understand why they got mad, even if the actual statement had some parts I would've worded a bit differently. I vaguely remember some of the deleted discussions from pre-2003 and it could get very brutal at times, some people were really shitting on IF. Not only on the music, but also on bandmembers as persons (someone had "Anders is a retard" as his title text under the username), and there were some mean rumors about their private lives as well--honestly, that's where I would've drawn the line too.

As I've said before, compared to those folks we're just a bunch of fanboys.

 

[DE4life]

As for the statement about "narrow minded fans", to be fair I can understand why they got mad, even if the actual statement had some parts I would've worded a bit differently. I vaguely remember some of the deleted discussions from pre-2003 and it could get very brutal at times, some people were really shitting on IF. Not only on the music, but also on bandmembers as persons, and there were some mean rumors about their private lives as well--honestly, that's where I would've drawn the line too.

As I've said before, compared to those folks we're just a bunch of fanboys.

I wasn't around during those days, but was it really that bad at the start of 2002? I mean, I would expect things to get bad after R2R came out as there was such a backlash to it. I wouldn't have thought there would be that much anger towards the band when Clayman was still the most recent album though, even if they were touring with Slipknot. Again it is before my time though as far as being on IF forums is concerned, so maybe there was.

I think their statement is very badly worded and gets too personal, however at the time I guess they were still pretty young - mid-to-late 20s - and until then they had probably been mostly used to getting universal praise. It was probably a bit disconcerting to see so many people beginning to turn on them, especially after Reroute came out. It's obvious that some members of the band at least were very personally hurt by the reaction they were getting. I'm sure if they could go back in time they probably wouldn't release that statement, or would have worded it completely differently, but we all have things we would go back and do differently if we could.

On the other hand considering how Anders reacted to Starforsaken's post on the JesterHead forums some years later it might just be that he's thin-skinned and can't accept criticism, even if it's constructive. Their messages come across as contradicory at times to me. On one hand they say "without the fans we wouldn't be where we are", then in the same breath they essentially say the fans opinions don't matter because the band do what they want and if people like it then fine, if not then get fucked and go listen to somebody else.

And yes we are nothing compared to the brutal kvlt underground fuckers of the old days I would love to take a time machine and drop Slave in the middle of an argument after Reroute came out. That shit would be explostive and possibly break space and time as we know it.

 

[Pallbearer]

I only dropped by occasionally, so it's possible it wasn't that bad all of the time. And it was a long time ago so my memories aren't the best, but I do remember the release of Clayman already triggered some hate from the trve kvlt crowd. Some song titles were "renamed" Penis Ride, Gayman, Only for the Wank, etc. Then more triggers followed in form of the band stating they would be open to the possibility of going on tour with Slipknot; actually going on tour with them; Anders getting dreads and finally, of course, the release of R2R.

 

[eochaid]

Anders is a pirate himself and is cool with downloading, so we can all stop feeling guilty about downloading those leaks now

His words... Represent my exact thoughts. I must have said something like that a thousand times.

 

[DE4life]

I only dropped by occasionally, so it's possible it wasn't that bad all of the time. And it was a long time ago so my memories aren't the best, but I do remember the release of Clayman already triggered some hate from the trve kvlt crowd. Some song titles were "renamed" Penis Ride, Gayman, Only for the Wank, etc. Then more triggers followed in form of the band stating they would be open to the possibility of going on tour with Slipknot; actually going on tour with them; Anders getting dreads and finally, of course, the release of R2R.

yeah that definitely sounds like the early 2000s.

 

[DE4life]

His words... Represent my exact thoughts. I must have said something like that a thousand times.

I read an interview where Bjorn also said he used to download a lot of songs and used Napster, although both of those interviews were from 15-16 years ago so who knows how they feel about it now. It isn't a question that gets asked as much nowadays as it did back then.

 

[eochaid]

On the other hand considering how Anders reacted to Starforsaken's post on the JesterHead forums some years later it might just be that he's thin-skinned and can't accept criticism, even if it's constructive. Their messages come across as contradicory at times to me. On one hand they say "without the fans we wouldn't be where we are", then in the same breath they essentially say the fans opinions don't matter because the band do what they want and if people like it then fine, if not then get fucked and go listen to somebody else.

I can understand them in some way, and, as a fan, a disappointed fan, I also don't.

Receiving praise and criticism is a part of their job. They should listen to both but just to an extent. It is as bad to listen to extreme praise as it is to listen to extreme criticism. But being mad because someone makes some kind of constructive criticism, or respectful criticism, and then bashing that person in a forum is totally wrong. Instead, they should have put themselves in the skin of the people and try to think why they think how they think.

On the other way, I know a few artists and, unlike IF they like to listen to what people has to say even if it is negative, but they cannot stand being said what to do with their work. Not the exact words but one told me something like this " when someone tells me what not to do the more I want to do that thing".

They have the right to do what they want with the band, we have the right to not like it and state our opinion.

Luckily, no one here is telling to go to the old days, do just melodeath because we seem to care about the quality of the music.

 

[eochaid]

I read an interview where Bjorn also said he used to download a lot of songs and used Napster, although both of those interviews were from 15-16 years ago so who knows how they feel about it now. It isn't a question that gets asked as much nowadays as it did back then.

I think is the natural thing to do. Back in the day, with luck, people could listen to the single and then buy the full album. And, sometimes, this happened to me, the album was shit.

So, downloading it to decide whether you're going to buy it or not seems just right.

 

[The Grayfox]

Only for the Wank

The official forum could be fucking brutal sometimes. When Reroute first leaked, the place turned into a fire zone. People were PISSED. In fact, most places I frequented were. I used to be part of a few IRC channels and DC++ hubs and people couldn't believe it. It had started when Clayman came out but was nowhere near as bad as a few years later. From my memory (which was 20 years ago obviously), In Flames was loved by almost everyone in the "underground metal scene." As people tend to do, they took it personally when Reroute came out. It was an absolute disaster and there were very, very few kind words coming from anyone who hadn't just recently discovered the band.

I remember seeing Nevermore and Opeth in '01 and a group of maybe 6-7 of us were standing around between bands, talking, and the subject of In Flames came up. This was before RTR obviously and even then people were like "ehhhh, Clayman is the beginning of the end for these guys." I would've been 16-17 at this time and I was confused. I liked Clayman a lot and didn't really see it as a decline in quality. Different, yes. Man, I was blind. Fast forward a year and I was massively disappointed. I was on IRC and somebody shared the album with me. It was like Christmas morning for a little kid -- just beyond excited. Then I started listening to it. It was like somebody knocked my Christmas tree over and just pissed all over it. Even now, I really don't like that album. And I think a big part of it is because of how gutted I was back then.

For the band, it must have been seriously disheartening to read through those forums. There was some mean shit said on there. Looking back, I am not surprised at all that they took it down. New fans coming in and just getting ripped to shreds. Not a good look for you when your fans are coming in to talk about the new album and just getting fucking roasted.

 

[DE4life]

The official forum could be fucking brutal sometimes. When Reroute first leaked, the place turned into a fire zone. People were PISSED. In fact, most places I frequented were. I used to be part of a few IRC channels and DC++ hubs and people couldn't believe it. It had started when Clayman came out but was nowhere near as bad as a few years later. From my memory (which was 20 years ago obviously), In Flames was loved by almost everyone in the "underground metal scene." As people tend to do, they took it personally when Reroute came out. It was an absolute disaster and there were very, very few kind words coming from anyone who hadn't just recently discovered the band.

I remember seeing Nevermore and Opeth in '01 and a group of maybe 6-7 of us were standing around between bands, talking, and the subject of In Flames came up. This was before RTR obviously and even then people were like "ehhhh, Clayman is the beginning of the end for these guys." I would've been 16-17 at this time and I was confused. I liked Clayman a lot and didn't really see it as a decline in quality. Different, yes. Man, I was blind. Fast forward a year and I was massively disappointed. I was on IRC and somebody shared the album with me. It was like Christmas morning for a little kid -- just beyond excited. Then I started listening to it. It was like somebody knocked my Christmas tree over and just pissed all over it. Even now, I really don't like that album. And I think a big part of it is because of how gutted I was back then.

For the band, it must have been seriously disheartening to read through those forums. There was some mean shit said on there. Looking back, I am not surprised at all that they took it down. New fans coming in and just getting ripped to shreds. Not a good look for you when your fans are coming in to talk about the new album and just getting fucking roasted.

Yeah, you can understand their decision to shut down the forums for sure.

I got into IF shortly before R2R came out. It would have been late '00 - early '01. I'd never really listened to metal before outside of hearing some Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit on TV shows, so hearing IF was a bit mind blowing to me. At first I didn't like anything before Colony, but eventually my tastes evolved enough for me to enjoy all of their stuff, along with DT, Soilwork, ATG, Arch Enemy, etc.

Despite being quite a new fan in many ways, I was disappointed in Reroute when it came out. I can remember thinking it sounded weird production-wise, and I didn't like Anders trying to sing. I had a trve kvlt friend online who bought the album on release and snapped the disc in half after listening to it, sending me a picture over AIM as proof he was a dickhead anyway though. He gave me a lot of shit because S&A was my favourite IF song at the time. I imagine that's kind of how these boards were during the 2002/2003 period.

Even though my first impressions of Reroute were bad I did end up really enjoying and liking the album affter listening to it enough times. I can also remember being very excited seeing IF & Soilwork on TV here in the UK. When I first started listening to IF nobody had a clue who they were, even in the rock/metal circles of my high school, so to see them getting exposure on TV with Cloud Connected & Trigger was very cool. Obv if I was a trve kvlt metal elitist I would have smashed my television in rage and burned every IF CD I owned, but I was really just a kid who was happy to see a band I loved gaining success and recognition.

 

[eochaid]

When R2R came out I did not like it. Not because of the production since I had imagine something like that after listening to some other of the producer's previous works. It wasn't also Anders since I though it was a big improvement. And it wasn't also because I considered it a sellout since I still find that album to be extreme enough.

When I first listened to system a few months before I lived the song. But the album... I thought it was too boring. I did not find a great difference between songs and I missed the guitar melodies. For some reason, I don't know why, the choruses reminded me of Soil work. They had released FN5 maybe the year before reroute came out?

Anyway. I did not like it but I also did not hate it. I just felt something was missing.

So I did not listen to it for like a whole year. Then I went back to it and my feelings where totally different. I could appreciate the differences between the songs and the work. It is one of my favourite IF albums. Though I still miss the guitar melodies.

 

[TheJestersDoor]

When R2R came out I was 4 years old and was massively pissed at the change in sound from joyous melodies to nu metal chu.... Who am I kidding I didn't know shit

I have the blessing/curse (blurse?) of hearing the entire pre-jesper leaving discography retrospectively and I like all of it even if some of it is objectively worse than others and undeniably the pre R2R stuff is the most creatively unique, but because of that it's always been hard for me to comprehend just how much of a change in sound it must have been when it actually came out. That's youth for you 

 

[DE4life]

When I first listened to system a few months before I lived the song. But the album... I thought it was too boring. I did not find a great difference between songs and I missed the guitar melodies. For some reason, I don't know why, the choruses reminded me of Soil work. They had released FN5 maybe the year before reroute came out?.

Soilwork released Natural Born Chaos on March 25th 2002, so about six months before Reroute. FnF came out a year later, April 3rd 2003. I remember there being a lot of comparisons between NBC & R2R, as both bands had switched to a poppier formula having been more or less straight MDM/Heavy Metal beforehand. DT meanwhile released Damage Done in July 2002 and went back to a more standard MDM formula than their last two albums Projector and Haven which had been fairly experimental.

I really liked NBC & DD at the time and still do. I think they are both excellent albums.

When R2R came out I was 4 years old and was massively pissed at the change in sound from joyous melodies to nu metal chu.... Who am I kidding I didn't know shit

I have the blessing/curse (blurse?) of hearing the entire pre-jesper leaving discography retrospectively and I like all of it even if some of it is objectively worse than others and undeniably the pre R2R stuff is the most creatively unique, but because of that it's always been hard for me to comprehend just how much of a change in sound it must have been when it actually came out. That's youth for you 

Thanks for making us all feel old, bro I was 15 when Reroute came out. I started listening to IF right at the tail-end of the golden era, after Clayman and just before Reroute.

 

[eochaid]

Then it was natural born chaos. I must have been confused by the shared videos of both bands. Anyway, at the time, I thought that the choruses, many of them, were very similar to soilwork's in style. I don't know why I was thinking like this though.

 

[DE4life]

R2R abd NBC both have similar song structures which have screams in verses and singing in choruses. You are right that the Trigger/Rejection Role videos were based on a pretend IF/Soilwork feud which was pretty funny. Trigger had already been out for a while by that point though.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2004/06/24/in-flames-interview

I wouldn't have expected a decent IF interview from IGN of all places, but this one with Bjorn is actually quite good. Bjorn's opinion on downloading:

Gelotte: I myself download stuff. I used Napster when it was around. It's a great way to get your music out there for a lot of bands, and it's a great way for the consumer to find a new band. A lot of CDs I bought were because I downloaded a few tracks just to see what it's all about. When people tell me check this band out, I don't just run out and buy the CD. I try to find some sound clips first. If I like it I will buy it. I've always done this and I will never change. So I guess you can say I think it's a good thing. The only drawback for me being a musician, there's no element of surprise. As soon as we press a promo CD it's out there and everyone can download it. That kind of sucks. Whenever the CD is released, that's fine.

IGN: I asked some fans on the Insider metal boards for some fair criticism. One of the things they said was they miss instrumentals. I haven't heard one from you since "Man Made God," and that's one of my favorites. Are we going to see more instrumentals from you guys?

Gelotte: Well, we have a singer so I don't see the point in doing instrumentals. We would do it if we felt that we had space for it and it was interesting to do it. But we will probably not play an instrumental live. We're not Dream Theater or anything, so it wouldn't make it fun. But I think if there would be time in the future we would do it, but it's nothing we plan our CDs around. We have a singer, and I think it would lack something important if we didn't use him.

IGN: In playing your music to old school fans, the reaction is almost universal. They absolutely love your music and they don't like Anders vocals at all (he laughs). How do you get past that, or can you?

Gelotte: You should never compare it to Judas Priest or Iron Maiden. The vocals are just another instrument, and it's part of the music. If we would have had clean vocals, we would totally be in a different ball game, we would not do the same kind of music and it would not be that interesting for us. So, for us, it's never been a question of if we should have something to please everyone else. It's not about getting used to us, that's the wrong word. You have to understand it.

IGN: What do you mean by understanding it?

Gelotte: You have to understand the point of the vocals. It's more expressing a vibe of the song than regular vocals are. It gives you aggression and a lot of dynamics that you can't reach with regular vocals.

IGN: You don't have to answer this if you want to. Are the stories about Anders and Jon Schaefer (of Iced Earth) having some trouble true?

Gelotte: I'm not going to answer that. It's something that's been totally taken out of proportion. So I'm not going to comment on that. I know Anders and I don't know Jon Schaefer.

IGN: That's why I asked, to see if it's blown out of proportion.

Gelotte: Yeah, totally.

 

[DE4life]

Also something weird I found, apparently Henke Forss was/is in dispute with IF over his rights to the Subterranean songs.

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/e...er-10-years-to-get-proper-songwriting-credit/

Björn Gelotte addressed reports that Forss has publicly complained about not being given appropriate credit for his work on "Subterranean", saying: "Stuff like this happens all the time. 'Cause in the past IN FLAMES wasn't really a band, it was more of a project. And if you know our history, you know that we had a couple of different singers. Mikael [Stanne] from DARK TRANQUILLITY was one of them, and Henke Forss, I don't know where he was from, but he was another singer. And Anders [Fridén, current IN FLAMES] singer] was in DARK TRANQUILLITY at the time. So it was all a big inbred circus, basically, in Gothenburg. And so, members come and go, and some people are content with what they did, and some are not. It's interesting [that Henke would come forward 20 years later with these claims]. If he did that, that's kind of… I don't know."

Henke said: "I'm not surprised Björn doesn't realize up on his high horse that I've been trying to claim my rights for the songs I co-wrote for over 10 years.

"Due to shifty record company CEOs and misleading advice from various people, nothing has really happened until recently when I saw that IN FLAMES once again made a re-release of the 'Subterranean' album.

"Anyone in the music business is painfully aware aware that four death metal songs (which, in my case, I co-wrote) won't make anyone financially set for life. It just boils down to right and wrong. And I've been trying, like I said, for many years set things straight.

"It's no big secret that former original members have fought IN FLAMES for 10+ years to get their right as well..."

I wonder who Forss means by "former original members" ... I don't remember seeing any other stories of this nature.

Oh, and apparently Bjorn posted this in response.

 

[eochaid]

Once again, my exact thoughts about downloading music. Sadly, there's a whole new generation that doesn't care about buying music anymore though they still call themselves real fans.

For me, the moment I have the cd, the blu ray movie or the takubon in my hands and I start listening to it, watching it or reading it is still special. I enjoy that a lot.

 

[TheJestersDoor]

At the risk of making y'all feel old for the second time in one day, I feel quite old fashioned in that sense, as everyone I know of my age just streams but I have a fixation of buying CDs, where possible and within reason i'll always buy a CD version of an album. Theres just something satisfying about the physical product, and the effort gone into designing thr art and everything. That and in a specific example where one of my favorite bands crowdfunded an album and I put £100+ into the campaign, it makes me proud to own a signed physical album with my own name in the album credits.

Even though i'm a young'un in the digital age I still own a copy of every In Flames album bar Lunar strain (and the subterranian EP) but even them i'll get round to. TJR-CC I have all the 2014 reissues complete with bonus tracks (Original copies would be sweet, but extra tracks wins priority. I'll get originals and more oddities like thr Trigger EP eventually), Mirrors truth EP, Deluxe gatefold ASOP, Deluxe SOAPF box set (Also a standard jewelcase version too), 2 copies of Siren Charms (ecolbook version but no bonus tracks, then 2 years ago I found a copy of the deluxe version with Become The Sky, which is a track I love, and as I said, more tracks XD), and then digipack deluxe Battles and I, The Mask.

On a side note, does a version of Battles even exist without the bonus tracks? physical CD I mean, it's probably on itunes without them, but even so I've never seen a single version for sale online without the 2 bonus tracks. As much as I dislike and rip on Battles I relistened to Us Against The World earlier and while its nothing to write home about, production aside it's not actually that bad, so that takes the "Songs I won't *always* skip when they come on while on shuffle from Battles up to like, 6. album has to be bad when that's the best thing you can say about it