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Depends on your take really. I quite like perfection sometimes, but I know what you mean. An album should have a certain character all of its own... I just don't feel recent Maiden efforts have had that. If you listen to every album through to 7th Son you find that every album has its own distinct sound. The production on Somewhere in Time for example isn't replicated on any other of their albums. And each of those albums (perhaps bar the first one) has production which is considered, elaborate, beautiful in its own distinctive way. For me the Somewhere in Time production is perfect. Martin Birch used to get the best out of the band too. The first verse of Number of the Beast he famously made Bruce do hundreds of takes until he got the one Martin wanted, and it shows. Whereas for AMOLAD Kevin Shirley used 80% of Bruce's guide vocals, which are strained and rough. Why do that? Bruce could have got a way better performance on all those songs given a few real takes. Also the vocals nowadays are so dry that they don't fit into the mix properly, they sit on top. For fuck's sake Shirley, you're given the greatest voice in the whole of Metal history, be kind to it!!

Sorry to be negative but it's fucking rubbish when your favourite band of 18 years constantly disappoint you. Maybe they shouldn't have set the bar so high in their 'golden' years...

Great website by the way! Perfect for geeks like me...
 
Caveman Ninja said:
Depends on your take really. I quite like perfection sometimes, but I know what you mean. An album should have a certain character all of its own... I just don't feel recent Maiden efforts have had that. If you listen to every album through to 7th Son you find that every album has its own distinct sound. The production on Somewhere in Time for example isn't replicated on any other of their albums. And each of those albums (perhaps bar the first one) has production which is considered, elaborate, beautiful in its own distinctive way. For me the Somewhere in Time production is perfect. Martin Birch used to get the best out of the band too. The first verse of Number of the Beast he famously made Bruce do hundreds of takes until he got the one Martin wanted, and it shows. Whereas for AMOLAD Kevin Shirley used 80% of Bruce's guide vocals, which are strained and rough. Why do that? Bruce could have got a way better performance on all those songs given a few real takes. Also the vocals nowadays are so dry that they don't fit into the mix properly, they sit on top. For fuck's sake Shirley, you're given the greatest voice in the whole of Metal history, be kind to it!!

Sorry to be negative but it's fucking rubbish when your favourite band of 18 years constantly disappoint you. Maybe they shouldn't have set the bar so high in their 'golden' years...

Great website by the way! Perfect for geeks like me...
Click to expand...

Yeah I think perfection in that sense is better. I hate the modern style where it no longer sounds like a band playing. Tell you what though, there's some majorly sloppy mistakes on the first Iron Maiden album.

Listen to Phantom of The Opera. You'd need two sets of hands to count the guitar mistakes. The amount of bad tape edits on that album is stupid as well. I think I like the rawness for character. And even the perfect Maiden albums had that. I supose there's a perfect balance.

I get your point with new Maiden stuff and the vocals. I'd slap a wide reverb on them and really make them part of the epic sounding music. I really enjoyed AMOLAD though. Could easily be better but hey.

Actually another band to check for mistakes would be Metallica on their first three albums. Especially Cliffs bass playing. Fucking hell he was very sloppy at times. But the ranuchy bass was just a character of the band and the music so it all worked so well.
 
I know how you feel Joe, have you heard the new Linkin Park song? Or Avenged Sevenfold's new stuff? Two of my favorite bands, turned to total shit.


I don't know if I'll be buying "The Final Frontier", I need to hear a few more songs before I decide.
 
Covet Chaos said:
Actually another band to check for mistakes would be Metallica on their first three albums. Especially Cliffs bass playing. Fucking hell he was very sloppy at times. But the ranuchy bass was just a character of the band and the music so it all worked so well.
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Led Zeppelin! Page is all over the place sometimes but it adds to it rather than being detrimental, character and attitude. love it
 
You'll find that with a lot of musicians - they're sloppy as shit but they have such a brilliant stage presence/performance echnique that it doesn't matter. Cliff Burton was a prime example.
 
I don't have much of a good feeling about this album, especially after two slightly-above-mediocre cuts that really don't get me pumped for anything. I've read these reviews where they say the album (and both songs we've heard so far) are awesome and stuff, but sometimes I think the press and the fans just don't dare to badmouth Maiden because everyone loves them. I think I may enjoy this album, but on a level much lower than what I have for Maiden.
 
Covet Chaos said:
Actually another band to check for mistakes would be Metallica on their first three albums. Especially Cliffs bass playing. Fucking hell he was very sloppy at times. But the ranuchy bass was just a character of the band and the music so it all worked so well.
Click to expand...

Cliff was incredibly tight. Listen to the master recordings of his bass playing. Anyone that says he was sloppy is insane. Maybe "overrated" or not "amazing" he was undeniably tight. I don't understand if you're mistaking his unorthodox playing style (at least for thrash metal) as sloppiness but he was clean as fuck.

Bringing it back to Evile, I believe Matt talks about listening to the isolated bass for Ride the Lightning in rock band and being blown away by it (or something along those lines). That was all musicianship and talent, not showmanship.

And guitar mistakes in Phantom of the Opera? If anything there are timing mistakes in things like the intro because of the incredibly bizarre time signature it has, but beyond they they were still very tight. I agree they had a lot more energy and were more loose, so to speak, but to attribute that to sloppiness rather than just energy is a mistake.
 
Vedicardi said:
Cliff was incredibly tight. Listen to the master recordings of his bass playing. Anyone that says he was sloppy is insane. Maybe "overrated" or not "amazing" he was undeniably tight. I don't understand if you're mistaking his unorthodox playing style (at least for thrash metal) as sloppiness but he was clean as fuck.

And guitar mistakes in Phantom of the Opera? If anything there are timing mistakes in things like the intro because of the incredibly bizarre time signature it has, but beyond they they were still very tight. I agree they had a lot more energy and were more loose, so to speak, but to attribute that to sloppiness rather than just energy is a mistake.
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Well I could actually pin point a few mistakes and duff notes. That Cliff made. I'm not saying he's shit.

Phantom of the Opera has some mistakes throughout on the guitars. Tends to be people missing a note on the guitar so it just comes out as a slight harmonic. I chose Metallica and Iron Maiden for a propper final essay on mistakes in popular songs. You'll hardly get anybody who's perfect. But you don't need perfection.
 
Vedicardi said:
Cliff was incredibly tight. Listen to the master recordings of his bass playing. Anyone that says he was sloppy is insane. Maybe "overrated" or not "amazing" he was undeniably tight. I don't understand if you're mistaking his unorthodox playing style (at least for thrash metal) as sloppiness but he was clean as fuck.

Bringing it back to Evile, I believe Matt talks about listening to the isolated bass for Ride the Lightning in rock band and being blown away by it (or something along those lines). That was all musicianship and talent, not showmanship.
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It's a shame you can't really hear these basslines on the actual albums. When listening to the master bass tracks, he sure as hell seems pretty sloppy, his rhythm seems off quite often.
 
I've listened to the master tracks plenty of times and I've never heard him be "off rhythm"
 


The finger picking throughout is definatly not consistant with timing.
Bummed note at 43/44 seconds
A bit of a late note at 1:18/19
The fact he goes half a beat out on the chorus after the 5ths and the octove part. If you have good timing count it.

I'm not gonna go on because there's a lot of sloppy playing. But Cliff was the perfect bassist.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Covet Chaos said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5KpwrAoZk4

The finger picking throughout is definatly not consistant with timing.
Bummed note at 43/44 seconds
A bit of a late note at 1:18/19
The fact he goes half a beat out on the chorus after the 5ths and the octove part. If you have good timing count it.

I'm not gonna go on because there's a lot of sloppy playing. But Cliff was the perfect bassist.
Click to expand...

not a bummed note at 43/44 that's a muted open low e
I think in this song in particular it may seem like he's off since he does very awkward 16th pickup notes often, but really what it seems you're referring to imperfections over mistakes.

What this really comes down to is in the fact that back then they would record and entire track in one go, rather than just slicing it up and editing over mistakes. Coming back to The Phantom of the Opera, there's no way you'll be able to play that song perfectly at it's full length without a break, there are going to be some very small sonic flubs, but they're not actual mistakes in the playing, though perhaps the style. Things like the guitar feedback at the very end of Victim of Changes by Judas Priest for example during the "No"s; I wouldn't call that a mistake, just a "sonic flub" or something along those lines. Back then they would actually mic and record the amps as opposed to what you have now where guitars are just being digitally recorded into the mixing board, etc.

I think it's all about the over "studio-ifying" of metal as opposed to some magical sudden increase in skill.
 
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