Ironic Metal bands... are the ones not getting it

[DBB]

and I'm indifferent towards Tenacious D, too - justed found your reaction a little exaggerated, but now it has become clearer with your explanation.

That is cool. And from my past exploits I can see why someone would think I was just getting warmed up.

What is so appealing about Borat other than his insulting people and revealing to intelligent Americans what they already know about their own country anyway?

Well, it is hard for me to step back from this one becuase I found it so damn funny, but a lot of the issues he "inadvertently" raises in his ramblings across the South are really not addressed in such a raw and naked form in the public domain. The etiquette and politeness classes in the middle of the movie can kind of stand for a metaphor for this fact--in my by the seat of pants analysis I'm making up as I go along here. Things that everyone knows exists just become so much a part of the background that they just become ambient noise and turning it up can produce some startling and shocking results for us over here who are immersed in it.

I don't know...it is really classic comedy at its core to me with clear connections to the bumbling innocence of Chaplin's tramp (with a thick gloss of the crass modern style covering it up). Borat just kind of goes a long like a man out of time and place and reveals some hard and home truths along the way.

better than that Ali G. stuff, though.

Agreed. What little I've seen in the wake of the Borat movie has been a bit strained. It seems to depend much more on the temperment of the person being interviewed. The brief Boutros Boutros-Gali segment was entertaining and illuminating--reminded me of why the U.S. vetoed his second term as secretary general of the UN.

 

[DBB]

So personally I think this wasn't a winning combination to begin with.

I don't think anything involving Axl Rose is going to produce a victory for anyone at this point.

 

[Cheiron]

BTW, I loved Borat too

I'm not a big fan of the Eagles Of Death Metal, but despite the name they're not really an Ironic Metal band at all. Their sound has much more in common with T-Rex and early punk rock. So personally I think this wasn't a winning combination to begin with.

They were the ones claiming that the audience didn't get the 'irony.'

 

[Some Bastard]

I don't think anything involving Axl Rose is going to produce a victory for anyone at this point.

Cherish this moment. We're agreeing on something again

They were the ones claiming that the audience didn't get the 'irony.'

No, according to the article it was John Soeder (pop critic for the Cleveland Plain Dealer) who made the 'irony' comment.

 

[ohiogrinder]

ironic or not, The Eagles Of Death Metal has to be one of the dumbest sounding band names in rock history

 

[ohiogrinder]

They were the ones claiming that the audience didn't get the 'irony.'

irony and metal are two things that really don't belong together.

 

[Some Bastard]

What!!? They were practically made for each other!!

The problem is that some people seem to think irony is somehow degrading Metal and therefore a bad thing.

 

[BenMech]

Well, I interpeted Mech's question to be about the public reception of Tenacious D (since that is what started this thread...could be wrong) and since the movie came out last week I assumed he had this at the front of his mind.

Nope, wrong. You got the question wrong.

I was asking where does Tenacious D stand within the arguments of your False Metal rant. Do you see the act as a band made by a comedic duo appreciating the form, or mocking the form in ironic hipster spite.

While sales and amount of money made is not a barometer of quality by any stretch of the imagination, it is a tool that one can use to measure public reception if it is properly applied.

Only by lazy idiots and statisticians. Def Leppard sank their career for this reason

School of Rock and The Pick of Destiny are similar movies with the same actor in the lead role and were actually cross-referenced in many reviews and the promotional push, so I don't think that it is a stretch of the imagination to assume that people who saw School of Rock were aware of The Pick of Destiny and chose to not flock to the theaters to see it.

What that reveals about the subject at hand is certainly a difficult hard and fast connection to make and that is why I said "make of it what you will" and did not incorporate it into a larger argument--merely stated my opinion and limited experience (which I do not see changing) with Tenacious D.

You use a lot of words to say nothing here.

I'm just throwing it out there as a tidbit and not making an argument per se.

see above

Maybe I just need to make myself clearer, I stated that "I have no stance on Tenacious D" yet Bastard naturally manufactures one for me because he cannot miss an opportunity to draw me into an argument that will lead elsewhere and because I said the music was "crap" (a mild opinion-based observation that I did not think would get everyone riled up). This is just an offhanded way of saying that the entire package--the comedy, the image, the songs--do not interest me.

In fact, I find it so uninteresting that I have not even bothered to pay attention to the band or think about it very much, yet I still find myself typing out a long post about them.

Dave, you're either a liar or an idiot here. Pick your poison. The concept of Tenacious D has EVERYTHING to do with your False Metal rant.

Btw, call me Ben, not Mech. I don't call you DBB when I already know your name is David

I'll be clear as possible: I find Jack Black to be a bore and the type of comedy he specializes in is something I do not find funny. It could be Nacho Libre or Shallow Hal instead of The Pick of Destiny as far as I am concered--they are all cut from the same cloth and something that is not my cup of tea. That the long and short of it.

And although I'm sure that many people don't think so, because of my track record, I do have a sense of humor.

I think I shot a bullet of saliva out of my mouth that hit a woman in the back of the head about four rows in front of me when I was laughing my ass off while watching Borat.

I do think, however, that the villagers in Glod should get a healthy chunk of the profits from the money Borat is raking in.

So there is a serious matter to end on in order to not ruin my reputation.

And why was Borat funny to you?

 

[ohiogrinder]

What!!? They were practically made for each other!!

The problem is that some people seem to think irony is somehow degrading Metal and therefore a bad thing.

but it is degrading...

a joke band is a joke band, no other way around it.

 

[DBB]

Dave, you're either a liar or an idiot here. Pick your poison. The concept of Tenacious D has EVERYTHING to do with your False Metal rant.

Lying? I know almost nothing about Tenacious D beyond what I've gleaned from random particles floating around in the pop cultural air. Cannot name one song by the band. I know they exist, and that they are less-than-serious, but that is about it. This is not avoidance--it is a fact. Seriously. In order to comment, I would have to buy the albums (there is more than one I assume), read a bunch of articles, reviews, interviews, etc. I'm not interested enough in the band/act to put that much effort into it at this point. I'm busy with other more important matters as far as this type of thing goes right now. It does have to do with humor and metal--but I doubt too many people will find it funny.

Btw, call me Ben, not Mech. I don't call you DBB when I already know your name is David

Okay, Ben. But I go by Dave around these parts.

And why was Borat funny to you?

I think I explained that above.

 

[Jim LotFP]

To add absolutely nothing to the discussion:

My wife bought a (the?) Tenacious D DVD some time back. The concert was boring shit, didn't watch it (then again that's my opinion of every single concert DVD I've ever tried to watch), but the comedy sketches that had been on HBO... some of that stuff... was gold. "Rock star sperm for sale!"

And Borat and Ali G (not so much Bruno) are fucking hilarious, just because they create awesome awkward moments. How they got Ali G in the same room, on camera, with people like Newt Gingrich and C. Everett Koop (or however his name is spelled) is beyond me. His Ali G roundtable "discussions"... WOW. Can't-watch-it-at-night-because-I'll-wake-the-neighbors funny.

Avoid the Ali G movie at all costs though.

As for why it's funny... what's being portrayed, a totally dumb shit making everybody uncomfortable... always great for a laugh. (hell, I giggle when my wife farts... so maybe I'm just easily amused) The fact that the guy doing it has balls of steel doesn't hurt.

 

[Some Bastard]

but it is degrading...

a joke band is a joke band, no other way around it.

In Tenacious D's case I'm pretty sure the jokes are made out of a genuine love for the music.

Cliches and stereotypes are there to be made fun of. No other way around that either. The Jews have a great way to deal with that. They call it 'gallow's humor'.

Any art form that can't take a little harmless teasing needs to die.

 

[Professor Black]

Tenacious D, Jack Black, etc. can fuck off. Jack Black would not be funny if Graham Chapman were pissing in his face.

Back on topic, what about Manowar then? They've been accused of not being metal fans in their private lives, and therefore having no right to capitalize on its imagery and devices. But surely they have more credibility than Tenacious D, even if we assume as true that Joey DeMaio hates metal and that Jack Black loves it.

The thing is that teasing is ok when it's within certain bounds, and when the target and perpetrator are equals. Manowar's often-humorous emulation of metal is like Chris Rock making a black joke. Jack Black is a piece of Hollywood shit who perpetuates heavy metal as the same cartoon it was to him as a child.

 

[DBB]

I think that there is a clear and distinct difference between irony and humor (in the modern culture without consulting a dictionary). Irony is snide, sarcastic and corrosive. Humor is warm, good-natured and serves to build bonds between people. Irony is the exact opposite--it establishes a detached and dismissive distance from the subject and touts its superiority with a smirk. Which is another way of saying what was written above and noting that irony and humor are not the same thing--something that no one has commented on.

As for Manowar....fuck...if I started I'm afraid I could not stop. I spent yesterday afternoon driving around in the car running payday errands listening to the "Outlaw-The Power" one-two punch on Hell On Stage over and over, rewinding and rewinding as I tooled around town.

 

[Cheiron]

Manowar, I don't know. I like a lot of their music. I'd wonder what they don't like about metal, and what they listen to instead. They probably just consider themselves the greatest metal band, so listening to anything else is a waste of time. Or something.

 

[JayKeeley]

I don't even know what this thread is about.

So is ironic metal when fellows like Dave Grohl release that heavy metal compilation with folks like King Diamond, Lemmy, and Celtic Frost?

What about The Fucking Champs? How many people here disregard Weakling?

 

[Cheiron]

Ironic Metal = things like Spinal Tap.

It is when bands taking a mocking form of Metal.

Lately, some are calling bands like "The Sword" a form of ironic metal. Which is making if difficult to figure out what is meant exactly, when its used that way.

 

[JayKeeley]

Well, it's pretty easy to mock metal when 90% of it is nothing more than a guilty pleasure.

It's not like you'll ever see a "heavy metal theory 101" class at some refined music university program, like you would, say, with jazz, classical, or blues. I think that if metal ever became entirely serious and withdrawn from fun/fantasy, you'd end up with a fan base made up of moody "jazz" types.

Then again, most metalheads are complete retards anyway so what do I know.

 

[Jim LotFP]

I think that if metal ever became entirely serious and withdrawn from fun/fantasy, you'd end up with a fan base made up of moody "jazz" types.

Wasn't this the goal a decade ago? heh.

 

[JayKeeley]

Wasn't this the goal a decade ago? heh.

God forbid. Give me moshpit frenzy any day of the week over stuck up seated audiences taking notes and applauding gently for each random improv.