Israel's military actions justified?

[Keltoi]

But Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, not a sovereign state. Thats the difference. Their (Hezbollah) actions are already violent, cowardly, without regard to human life, and illegal; whereas Israel is supposedly a western-style democracy, with all of the legal guarentees and rights, geopolitical and diplomatic requirements of a State.

Then who is going to confront Hezbollah? The Lebanese Army will not and cannot do it. I agree that we should not allow Israel to justify their actions in regards to warfare by pointing out what Hezbollah is doing. However, Hezbollah's actions brought this result upon Lebanon. Hezbollah will not "come out and fight", that isn't how they operate. Does this mean that Israel should confront them with both hands tied behind their backs and simply duck the incoming missiles and scream curses at the northern hills? Of course not. Israel should take all precaution to limit the chance of civilian casualties. I don't know if they have or not, but war cannot be sanitized. War is war, and people always die, and the majority are those are civilians. Just a sad commentary on war itself.

 

[RookParliament]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/lebanon.evacuation/index.html

O vey

God Bless America and generosity of our leaders

 

[Falconspirit]

Then who is going to confront Hezbollah? The Lebanese Army will not and cannot do it. I agree that we should not allow Israel to justify their actions in regards to warfare by pointing out what Hezbollah is doing. However, Hezbollah's actions brought this result upon Lebanon. Hezbollah will not "come out and fight", that isn't how they operate. Does this mean that Israel should confront them with both hands tied behind their backs and simply duck the incoming missiles and scream curses at the northern hills? Of course not. Israel should take all precaution to limit the chance of civilian casualties. I don't know if they have or not, but war cannot be sanitized. War is war, and people always die, and the majority are those are civilians. Just a sad commentary on war itself.

"Balance Of Power" OF course Hezbollah is not going to come out and fight an enemy who is attacking from the air and from the sea only. Hezbollah clearly stated that it would not hesitate to "come out and fight" if Israel were to enter Lebanon with it's army/soldiers. They did the same thing 6 years ago, and it was one of the reasons that made Israel leave the South of Lebanon...it was, as somebody said here, a bit like US in Vietnam for them.

 

[A Dying Breed]

But Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, not a sovereign state. Thats the difference. Their (Hezbollah) actions are already violent, cowardly, without regard to human life, and illegal; whereas Israel is supposedly a western-style democracy, with all of the legal guarentees and rights, geopolitical and diplomatic requirements of a State.

Since when has any state, regardless of its political organization, been limited by anything resembling "geopolitical and diplomatic requirements" with regard to its foreign policy? You people bitch and moan about US/Israel/UK policy as if you're actually surprised that states which have little or nothing to deter them from exercising their power as they see fit do so. Think about it on the individual level. We recognize that without a system of laws and law enforcement, strong individuals have free reign to victimize and/or subordinate weaker ones. Those of us with childlike moral sensibilities find this offensive. Now let's look at the international system. International law is a joke which nobody respects, but more importantly there is no enforcement mechanism. Again, those of us with childlike moral sensibilities find this reality unpalatable, but it doesn't change a goddamn thing. If you want to criticize a policy, base it on something substantive (ie. "Destroying Lebanese infrastructure is counterproductive") rather than subjecting us all to this weepy, moralizing, naive bullshit about how Israel or any other political actor is "bad" because it doesn't conform to your arbitrarily constructed ethical system (ie. "OMG they blew up a FAMILY, I hate Israel!")

 

[speed]

Since when has any state, regardless of its political organization, been limited by anything resembling "geopolitical and diplomatic requirements" with regard to its foreign policy? You people bitch and moan about US/Israel/UK policy as if you're actually surprised that states which have little or nothing to deter them from exercising their power as they see fit do so. Think about it on the individual level. We recognize that without a system of laws and law enforcement, strong individuals have free reign to victimize and/or subordinate weaker ones. Those of us with childlike moral sensibilities find this offensive. Now let's look at the international system. International law is a joke which nobody respects, but more importantly there is no enforcement mechanism. Again, those of us with childlike moral sensibilities find this reality unpalatable, but it doesn't change a goddamn thing. If you want to criticize a policy, base it on something substantive (ie. "Destroying Lebanese infrastructure is counterproductive") rather than subjecting us all to this weepy, moralizing, naive bullshit about how Israel or any other political actor is "bad" because it doesn't conform to your arbitrarily constructed ethical system (ie. "OMG they blew up a FAMILY, I hate Israel!")

I enjoy your moral relativism, and you're right. For years Israel has broken thousands of international laws in regards to Lebanon and Palestine, and has not been punished because of their power. Still, Israelis drape themselves in their flag of supposed justice, democracy, and state institutions to give them a moral pretext to defend their country from terrorists.

Honestly I think its obvious the Israelis knew that such a attack would only throw more and more arabs against them, and would spawn terrorism in the future. Perhaps this was intentional, and was done to give them the power to not only ramp up their offensives against Hamas and Palestine, but to engage in an almost perpetual war situation. It really gives them the power to act unilaterally, and without regard to any international restrictions.

This is such a complex topic, one would have to write forever to cover all of the issues. I mean you have the attack of infrastructure, the over-response to two soldiers, the known ineffectiveness and lack of power of the lebanese government, and so much more, I dont feel like writing a 10 page essay.

 

[speed]

Then who is going to confront Hezbollah? The Lebanese Army will not and cannot do it. I agree that we should not allow Israel to justify their actions in regards to warfare by pointing out what Hezbollah is doing. However, Hezbollah's actions brought this result upon Lebanon. Hezbollah will not "come out and fight", that isn't how they operate. Does this mean that Israel should confront them with both hands tied behind their backs and simply duck the incoming missiles and scream curses at the northern hills? Of course not. Israel should take all precaution to limit the chance of civilian casualties. I don't know if they have or not, but war cannot be sanitized. War is war, and people always die, and the majority are those are civilians. Just a sad commentary on war itself.

"War is the conduct of diplomacy by other means," Von Clausewitz.

Did Israel no longer feel they could negotiate, or did they, and still refuse, to negotiate with terrorists? Currently the Israeli's are demanding Hezbollah lay down their arms, return the hostages, and surrender before they stop the fighting. That does not sounds like any meaningful act of diplomacy to me. They know Hezbollah will never accept those terms. And invading Lebanon, as they partially did today, is only going to create the same situation Hezbollah won (by forcing their withdrawal) in the 1980's. Thus, is war really the best policy in this matter? Could the Israelis have taken another path? Or is that impossible as they are seen as occupiers and aggressors?

 

[Neith]

If you want to criticize a policy, base it on something substantive (ie. "Destroying Lebanese infrastructure is counterproductive") rather than subjecting us all to this weepy, moralizing, naive bullshit about how Israel or any other political actor is "bad" because it doesn't conform to your arbitrarily constructed ethical system (ie. "OMG they blew up a FAMILY, I hate Israel!")

If that was directed at me, then I just want to point out that my problem with it is the hypocrisy. Yes, of course people die all the time, etc etc, but to kill people just because you can and then try to excuse it by saying you were countering terrorism is utter horseshit that they shouldn't get away with. If they just said they hated their religion or colour, etc then it wouldn't be half as bad because at least they wouldn't be lying about it. The fact that supposed 'democratic' countries support, and perpetrate actions like these only highlight the hypocrisy. And whilst my post may have been a bit angsty it doesn't change the facts behind it.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Me and Norsemaiden think very much alike.

Cool Hopefully a lot of eyes are being opened by the outrageous behaviour of Israel. That link you put on before was shocking even to me! And most of the mass media never reports things accurately - minimising the coverage of the Israeli assaults on civilians. They can only be doing this because they have a thinly disguised bias.

 

[Verwuestung]

Then who is going to confront Hezbollah? The Lebanese Army will not and cannot do it. I agree that we should not allow Israel to justify their actions in regards to warfare by pointing out what Hezbollah is doing. However, Hezbollah's actions brought this result upon Lebanon. Hezbollah will not "come out and fight", that isn't how they operate. Does this mean that Israel should confront them with both hands tied behind their backs and simply duck the incoming missiles and scream curses at the northern hills? Of course not. Israel should take all precaution to limit the chance of civilian casualties. I don't know if they have or not, but war cannot be sanitized. War is war, and people always die, and the majority are those are civilians. Just a sad commentary on war itself.

FINALLY, someone with a brain (sorry I don't mean all of you but just some of the people I saw (didn't read every reply as it got very old))

that is the situation folks

Honestly I think its obvious the Israelis knew that such a attack would only throw more and more arabs against them, and would spawn terrorism in the future. Perhaps this was intentional, and was done to give them the power to not only ramp up their offensives against Hamas and Palestine, but to engage in an almost perpetual war situation. It really gives them the power to act unilaterally, and without regard to any international restrictions.

wrong.
I truly don't believe israel is looking for more enemies more then it has now.
you have to understand is that israel is trying to make a stand, to show hezbollah they can't just kidnap soldiers and think they'll get away with no response from us.
hezbollah is intentionally hiding amongst innocent citizens and is even at times forcing the citizens to stay (not letting them leave) just so all of you people could say israel is killing citizens on purpose.
israel is not wishing to look like the bastards in this, they don't want to kill people. the israeli army isn't well orginized, there's much problems with it you can't even know about.. just because it has so many people in it. (mandatory recruitment)
they make planty of mistakes including the pilots (unfortuneately) and blow someone up they shouldn't have.
israel had intelligence misinformation and that is why those 2 soldiers were kidnapped after the first one.
israel has definitely suffered a trauma from the last time it entered lebanon with ground forces, as falconspirit mentioned it was sort of israel's vietnam.

Me and Norsemaiden think very much alike.

my condolences

 

[Keltoi]

"War is the conduct of diplomacy by other means," Von Clausewitz.

Did Israel no longer feel they could negotiate, or did they, and still refuse, to negotiate with terrorists? Currently the Israeli's are demanding Hezbollah lay down their arms, return the hostages, and surrender before they stop the fighting. That does not sounds like any meaningful act of diplomacy to me. They know Hezbollah will never accept those terms. And invading Lebanon, as they partially did today, is only going to create the same situation Hezbollah won (by forcing their withdrawal) in the 1980's. Thus, is war really the best policy in this matter? Could the Israelis have taken another path? Or is that impossible as they are seen as occupiers and aggressors?

Hezbollah made a mistake in attacking across the Lebanese border and kidnapping soldiers. There is now way to justify this action. Especially since Israel was locked and loaded already. Hezbollah didn't do this to help the Palestinians, and it obviously wasn't to help the people of Lebanon. It was an act of war. Could Israel "negotiate?"..which is not a negotiation, it is blackmail. Has Israel given in to blackmail before? Yes, but Hezbollah shouldn't have expected that in this case. Not when Iran's president has made recent statements about the destruction of Israel, and not when Hezbollah is funded and aided by Iran. The lesson here, if you want war you just might get it.

 

[Horus]

my condolences

I resent that.

 

[speed]

FINALLY, someone with a brain (sorry I don't mean all of you but just some of the people I saw (didn't read every reply as it got very old))

that is the situation folks


wrong.
I truly don't believe israel is looking for more enemies more then it has now.
you have to understand is that israel is trying to make a stand, to show hezbollah they can't just kidnap soldiers and think they'll get away with no response from us.
hezbollah is intentionally hiding amongst innocent citizens and is even at times forcing the citizens to stay (not letting them leave) just so all of you people could say israel is killing citizens on purpose.
israel is not wishing to look like the bastards in this, they don't want to kill people. the israeli army isn't well orginized, there's much problems with it you can't even know about.. just because it has so many people in it. (mandatory recruitment)
they make planty of mistakes including the pilots (unfortuneately) and blow someone up they shouldn't have.
israel had intelligence misinformation and that is why those 2 soldiers were kidnapped after the first one.
israel has definitely suffered a trauma from the last time it entered lebanon with ground forces, as falconspirit mentioned it was sort of israel's vietnam.


my condolences

I dont think theres any right or wrong here, but if so, you are much closer to error, than I.

Are you people Israelis (Versuetwang,Keltoi) or just that naive and uninformed? For godsakes, it doesnt take much of a brain to figure out if Israel was merely trying to defend their country, this is the worst most idiotic way to do it. Read something for fuck sakes. Watch Charlie Rose, the BBC, read a fucking decent newspaper.

I was just reading the latest issue of The Economist that had a few lenghty articles on how overboard and counterproductive Israel's recent policy in the Gaza strip has been. A month ago, Hamas captured an Israeli solider. Israel responded by besieging the Gaza strip (still under siege) and killing at least 100 civilians, and knocking out basic services to the rest of the 1.4 million residents. In addition, Hamas has offerred to exchange the soldier for a prisoner, and the Israelis refused to negotiate. The result The Economist stated, was not only to enrage the Palestinian citizenry, but to make them even more destitute than before. Now a month later, Israel is using the same tactics against Lebanon (and Israel has invaded Lebanon thousands of times in the last few years--its all documented) and Hezbollah, while at the same time, ramping up attacks on Hamas in Gaza. What more do you want? What more evidence would you like?

 

[RookParliament]

I dont think theres any right or wrong here, but if so, you are much closer to error, than I.

Are you people Israelis (Versuetwang,Keltoi) or just that naive and uninformed? For godsakes, it doesnt take much of a brain to figure out if Israel was merely trying to defend their country, this is the worst most idiotic way to do it. Read something for fuck sakes. Watch Charlie Rose, the BBC, read a fucking decent newspaper.

I was just reading the latest issue of The Economist that had a few lenghty articles on how overboard and counterproductive Israel's recent policy in the Gaza strip has been. A month ago, Hamas captured an Israeli solider. Israel responded by besieging the Gaza strip (still under siege) and killing at least 100 civilians, and knocking out basic services to the rest of the 1.4 million residents. In addition, Hamas has offerred to exchange the soldier for a prisoner, and the Israelis refused to negotiate. The result The Economist stated, was not only to enrage the Palestinian citizenry, but to make them even more destitute than before. Now a month later, Israel is using the same tactics against Lebanon (and Israel has invaded Lebanon thousands of times in the last few years--its all documented) and Hezbollah, while at the same time, ramping up attacks on Hamas in Gaza. What more do you want? What more evidence would you like?

Speed, the Israelis are already under attack within their own country. Hezbollah is launching missile attacks against civilian targets. They launched a missile attack against a civilian target before they kidnapped two soldiers. Israeli reasoning is... if they are being attacked they might as well push into and away from their northern border.

 

[speed]

Speed, the Israelis are already under attack within their own country. Hezbollah is launching missile attacks against civilian targets. They launched a missile attack against a civilian target before they kidnapped two soldiers. Israeli reasoning is... if they are being attacked they might as well push into and away from their northern border.

Israel is destroying the entire civilian infrastructure of Lebanon and hitting civilian, not hezbollah targets. Thats no reasoning at all.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Speed I think you have correctly assessed where the loyalties lie of some of the posters here. Virtually all Israelis are in favour of the attack on Lebanon. Even little old ladies interviewed say that the Arabs should all be killed . Such is the mentality.

 

[Horus]

Just this morning, my mom and I were talking about everything going on in the Middle East, and she was horrified when I started saying that Israel wasn't justified in most of their actions. Alot of people are unbelievably biased in this debate. In fact, too many people are too one sided here.

 

[speed]

Speed I think you have correctly assessed where the loyalties lie of some of the posters here. Virtually all Israelis are in favour of the attack on Lebanon. Even little old ladies interviewed say that the Arabs should all be killed . Such is the mentality.

I agree. And to show how unbiased I am, I point not only to the fact I and Derek were the only people standing up for the jews in not deying the holocaust, but one of my best friends is jewish who has some family in Israel, and one is Syrian, who is vehemently anti-israeli. I hear both sides, plus I think its necessary to use a little critical thinking, and basic morality. Israel has used neither.

 

[RookParliament]

Israel is destroying the entire civilian infrastructure of Lebanon and hitting civilian, not hezbollah targets. Thats no reasoning at all.

There are four power plants in Lebanon. Israel has hit one. They could have hit the others anytime they wanted. Why haven't they?

Also Hezbollah is indiscrimenatly attacking civilians targets, but that gets a pass from you?

 

[Keltoi]

I dont think theres any right or wrong here, but if so, you are much closer to error, than I.

Are you people Israelis (Versuetwang,Keltoi) or just that naive and uninformed? For godsakes, it doesnt take much of a brain to figure out if Israel was merely trying to defend their country, this is the worst most idiotic way to do it. Read something for fuck sakes. Watch Charlie Rose, the BBC, read a fucking decent newspaper.

I was just reading the latest issue of The Economist that had a few lenghty articles on how overboard and counterproductive Israel's recent policy in the Gaza strip has been. A month ago, Hamas captured an Israeli solider. Israel responded by besieging the Gaza strip (still under siege) and killing at least 100 civilians, and knocking out basic services to the rest of the 1.4 million residents. In addition, Hamas has offerred to exchange the soldier for a prisoner, and the Israelis refused to negotiate. The result The Economist stated, was not only to enrage the Palestinian citizenry, but to make them even more destitute than before. Now a month later, Israel is using the same tactics against Lebanon (and Israel has invaded Lebanon thousands of times in the last few years--its all documented) and Hezbollah, while at the same time, ramping up attacks on Hamas in Gaza. What more do you want? What more evidence would you like?

What you are referring to is collective punishment. As a matter of military strategy, collective punishment is the only way to truly impact an insurgent/terrorist enemy who hides inside the civilian population. Is it nice and cuddly and politically correct? No. It would be much better if Hamas and Hezbollah looked at their military capability, looked at the suffering it can bring down upon their people, and decided it might be in their best interest to accept Israel's right to exist and seriously pursued a peaceful solution. Playing a pointless blame game about who did what to whom since the time of Adam is pointless and only breeds more hatred. As much as I would like to read a magazine and accept an article that agrees with my worldview(of which there are many), I prefer to base my opinions on critical thought and reality.
Another issue you raise is whether Israel is only "defending" itself. How can you defend Israel when Hezbollah is firing rockets and missiles from civilian areas in Beirut and other parts of Lebanon? Hezbollah aren't stupid, and they know what they are doing. They know that for Israel to truly confront them, they will have to live with civilian casualties on the ground. Hezbollah wouldn't have it any other way. Good propoganda for magazines like you mentioned. Love how you suggested we watch the BBC and Charlie Rose, media sources that strangely enough seem to agree with you...
Oh, and no I'm not Jewish. Are you a Muslim, you seem to have alot of sympathy for them...see how pathetic that is?

 

[Norsemaiden]

Hezbollah's very expensive rockets are really ineffective. They could have acheived the same death toll with just one suicide bomber!

Ptah Khnemu, it is a relief that there can be someone like you with Jewish ancestry who accepts that Israel has gone too far. I wouldn't like to think that all Jews were of one mind, although the majority certainly are. The astounding thing is that their actions actually generate hatred. They stand to lose everything if they turn the rest of the world against them (certain govenments excepted).

While it is true to say that a little apparent hatred is good for keeping Jewish unity and minimising outmarriage, they could probably just stick to the odd staged attack on a synagogue.