Jobs/Professions

[crimsonfloyd]

Regarding Ds, our school doesn't do them, which I really love. A, B, C, or F, which means students can't settle for mediocrity and still graduate (so long as teachers don't grade-inflate).

English papers are tough because a) you're trying to coach them how to construct critical arguments, and b) you're also trying to clean up sentence structure, which can be difficult, especially given that it's possible to compose a grammatically and syntactically correct sentence that's still atrocious.

Or visa versa. Since I have a lot of EL or former EL students, often the sentence structure can be off, while the reasoning can be proficient or even strong. Or it can all be off. It often takes time to distill the different elements.

I actually don’t mind marking papers. But that’s probably because I’m Maths and it’s much quicker. It’s correct or it isn’t. There are some annoying, multi-step questions where they can gain marks for correct working with incorrect numbers. They’re particularly painful when it’s students who don’t lay their work out in a clear, logical way! I’d hate to mark English based papers.

It’s book marking I can’t stand. I have too many classes to mark it meaningful or purposeful and it’s juat so time consuming. Even at 5 minute per book that’s nearly 3 hours for your average class.

What's book marking? You mean notebooks?

 

[Funerary_Doom]

I have 3 ENL kids and when checking their work, I re-write their entire paper. Its pretty brutal because oftentimes the content is there it's just not structured properly. Trying to figure out how to best say something while keeping the writer's integrity is difficult.

 

[Dak]

I wasn't saying that D is failing. D is a passing grade, but your GPA takes a hit.

D should be failing. I would say C should be failing but there's so many other systemic failure contingencies I couldn't say that categorically.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I have 3 ENL kids and when checking their work, I re-write their entire paper. Its pretty brutal because oftentimes the content is there it's just not structured properly. Trying to figure out how to best say something while keeping the writer's integrity is difficult.

In those situations, (usually kids who are EL and SPED), for compositions, I usually give them prompts with sentence frames for most of the sentences. It helps them internalize the structure of sentences and get started (which for my kids at least, tends to be one of the hardest parts). Then, after maybe half a year, if they're ready, I remove the sentence frames and just give them the prompts. They'll construct the frames based on the prompts. It usually works with the kids that do the assignments with regularity.

D should be failing.

Agreed, at both the high school and collegiate level. Mediocrity shouldn't be rewarded with diplomas.

 

[Einherjar86]

At my undergrad institution, D wasn't technically failing, but you didn't receive credit for the course. That's how it should be, at the very least.

 

[Serjeant Grumbles]

Fuck all that. I flunked one student this semester. He skipped nine classes. Nine fucking classes

Regarding Ds, our school doesn't do them, which I really love. A, B, C, or F, which means students can't settle for mediocrity and still graduate (so long as teachers don't grade-inflate).

How are you supposed to throw some D's on it, then?

 

[Phylactery]

What's book marking? You mean notebooks?

Yeah. They have exercise books that they do their classwork in. We have to mark it for presentation and stuff and make sure they’re copying things down correctly. It’s tedius. On top of detailed homework feedback it’s a lot of work.

 

[Dak]

In those situations, (usually kids who are EL and SPED), for compositions, I usually give them prompts with sentence frames for most of the sentences. It helps them internalize the structure of sentences and get started (which for my kids at least, tends to be one of the hardest parts). Then, after maybe half a year, if they're ready, I remove the sentence frames and just give them the prompts. They'll construct the frames based on the prompts. It usually works with the kids that do the assignments with regularity.

If they would just read things that are properly or at least passably written, they could pick that stuff up by just seeing it. Surveys show that no one reads anymore, at least other thn txtspk lol 4rl.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

If they would just read things that are properly or at least passably written, they could pick that stuff up by just seeing it. Surveys show that no one reads anymore, at least other thn txtspk lol 4rl.

The bolded part demonstrates that you have no idea what you're talking about. That's actually often true for students have high lexiles (reading levels) either in English or in their first language. For example, two years ago, I had a student who was reading a college level in Spanish but was an English learner. He was able to apprehend a ton with regards to sentence and composition structure within a year because he had already developed the literacy skills in his first language. That allowed him to transfer it over.

However, the story is totally different if the student does not have a high lexile in their primary language. Then, if they have a learning disability, that only further complicates things. This is why these students are given accommodations, because they need extra supports to access the content and produce grade-level products. To suggest that student with dyslexia, a visual processing disorder, or even an auditory processing disorder will be able to "just see it" and then in turn implement sentence structures that he or she has seen into their own writing is completely ignorant of how these learning disabilities impact reading, writing, the ability receive information, and produce academic products. Which is fine, you're not a teacher of students with disabilities; unless one of your kids has a learning disability, you really don't need to know. But please, don't dismiss solutions while offering idiotic alternatives to things you clearly don't know shit about.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Yeah. They have exercise books that they do their classwork in. We have to mark it for presentation and stuff and make sure they’re copying things down correctly. It’s tedius. On top of detailed homework feedback it’s a lot of work.

Yeah I used to grade notebooks and it was the most torturously boring thing in the world. Now, I don't grade them. I just grade their writing and speaking projects, which is honestly much better, since their grade is based purely on standard-based assignments. The notebook, I found, would inflate their grades and honestly, many of them were just copying off each other anyways. It sounds like your school makes you grade them, which sucks.

 

[Omni]

He was able to apprehend a ton with regards to sentence and composition

I know that this is technically correct, but using it in place of "comprehend" looks funny to me. The snippet here makes him sound like he was arresting people with bad grammar.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I'm glad I only had to teach for two years. Grading lab reports is probably still easier than grading papers though. I was kind of a softball grader when it came to basic mistakes and since I didn't have input on the reports themselves (they were standardized between labs), it felt wrong being hard on students when I thought some of the questions were kinda bullshit. But there were a couple lab reports I really liked that I thought allowed demonstration of more critical thinking, so when students fucked those ones up I handed out a lot of zeroes. I'd enjoy teaching a lot more if I got to design the entire course.

Pretty much the only students that ever failed were the ones that missed labs though. And this Korean guy that I caught cheating on multiple exams.

 

[Dak]

The bolded part demonstrates that you have no idea what you're talking about. That's actually often true for students have high lexiles (reading levels) either in English or in their first language. For example, two years ago, I had a student who was reading a college level in Spanish but was an English learner. He was able to apprehend a ton with regards to sentence and composition structure within a year because he had already developed the literacy skills in his first language. That allowed him to transfer it over.

However, the story is totally different if the student does not have a high lexile in their primary language. Then, if they have a learning disability, that only further complicates things. This is why these students are given accommodations, because they need extra supports to access the content and produce grade-level products. To suggest that student with dyslexia, a visual processing disorder, or even an auditory processing disorder will be able to "just see it" and then in turn implement sentence structures that he or she has seen into their own writing is completely ignorant of how these learning disabilities impact reading, writing, the ability receive information, and produce academic products. Which is fine, you're not a teacher of students with disabilities; unless one of your kids has a learning disability, you really don't need to know. But please, don't dismiss solutions while offering idiotic alternatives to things you clearly don't know shit about.

So your argument that I don't know what I'm talking about is the small slice of <10% of children (estimates of total number of all learning disabilities, not just reading related learning disabilities). Please stop this dismissing of generalities with outliers. Low ability in a primary language without a disability is at least partially the result of a lack of exposure, which, most likely, goes back in no small part to parenting.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jordan...ults-less-than-5-books-per-year/#2aaa8bba49f1

 

[crimsonfloyd]

So your argument that I don't know what I'm talking about is the small slice of <10% of children (estimates of total number of all learning disabilities, not just reading related learning disabilities).

That was literally the group of students Funerary Doom and I were talking about in the post you quoted. If you just wanted to make a general comment about how important reading is, that would be fine and I would have agreed with you. However, in the context of what you quoted, you made a fool of yourself.

 

[Dak]

That was literally the group of students Funerary Doom and I were talking about in the post you quoted. If you just wanted to make a general comment about how important reading is, that would be fine and I would have agreed with you. However, in the context of what you quoted, you made a fool of yourself.

I know FD teaches special needs students; I don't recall you having mentioned doing so as well. Very well. I think it's important to note though that you stated that exposure to your instruction works for those who do the work. I wonder to what degree simply reading on their own would do the same? It's a vicious cycle - not reading much makes reading more difficult, and reading being difficult discourages reading.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I know FD teaches special needs students; I don't recall you having mentioned doing so as well. Very well.

According to federal law, students with disabilities are placed in the least restricted environment. That means, if they are capable of functioning with accommodations in a full inclusion classroom, then they are placed in a full inclusion classroom, such as the ones I teach. If they have a more high-impacting disability, then they are placed in "sheltered classrooms," like what I assume FD teaches.

I think it's important to note though that you stated that exposure to your instruction works for those who do the work. I wonder to what degree simply reading on their own would do the same? It's a vicious cycle - not reading much makes reading more difficult, and reading being difficult discourages reading.

Reading more texts that are slightly above present lexile will definitely help students improve their reading. So, if a kid reads at a 6th grade reading level, they should be independently reading stuff at about a 7th grade reading level to progress. The challenge then, is cultivating the joy of reading in students so that they read on their own, but I do think when kids are given stuff that they "get" they tend to engage more. A lot of the pain and negative associations comes from not accessing the text in the first place.

But all that just has to do with "reading for pleasure," which to your initial point, is super important. Reading in class is a totally different challenge because all the students have to read texts that are at grade level even though they all aren't reading at grade level. Things get even more complicated when you're talking about students with certain learning disabilities. For example, it if you have a visual processing disorder, you may be having to decode every word you read, which can make the process exhausting, even if the text is at your lexile. That's when accommodations like the one I mentioned are helpful. Without getting too technical about it, generally speaking, the higher the reading level and cognitive ability of a student is, the fewer supports they need to produce grade level writing products. On the other hand, while lower reading ability and cognitive impairments do not exclude a student from producing grade-level writing products, it does more academic supports are required. That's why I would give a student with a visual processing disorder and a 6th grade reading level sentence frames for their essay on All Quiet on the Western Front, but I wouldn't give those to the student that reads at a 10th grade level or higher and has no learning disability.

 

[Dak]

According to federal law, students with disabilities are placed in the least restricted environment. That means, if they are capable of functioning with accommodations in a full inclusion classroom, then they are placed in a full inclusion classroom, such as the ones I teach. If they have a more high-impacting disability, then they are placed in "sheltered classrooms," like what I assume FD teaches.

Is that Cali specific? Just wondering. I do ADHD/Learning disability testing at the collegiate level as a part of my current practicum, and often we get persons whose parents did not allow them to be tested for ADHD/LD in grade school for whatever ego reasons so then they come for them in college when they are away. Or they had an early diagnosis and then quit the accommodations for social reasons and now want them again. So I don't know how accommodations work in my current US state since I'm not a school psych grad student (and haven't bothered to ask them).

Without getting too technical about it, generally speaking, the higher the reading level and cognitive ability of a student is, the fewer supports they need to produce grade level writing products.

Well I would hold myself and others I know as anecdotal proof of this, at all levels. My parents had a decent literary classics collection I was required to read from like 10-16 (but I enjoyed reading and voraciously read prior to that). Everything from House of Seven Gables to Crime and Punishment to War and Peace during that time. As a counter example, my wife's family didn't have shit in the house but some books on plants and a very outdated Britannica collection. Consequently, she struggles with reading.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Is that Cali specific? Just wondering. I do ADHD/Learning disability testing at the collegiate level as a part of my current practicum, and often we get persons whose parents did not allow them to be tested for ADHD/LD in grade school for whatever ego reasons so then they come for them in college when they are away. Or they had an early diagnosis and then quit the accommodations for social reasons and now want them again. So I don't know how accommodations work in my current US state since I'm not a school psych grad student (and haven't bothered to ask them).

It's a federal law called IDEA (Individuals with disabilities education act). The law includes FAPE (free and appropriate public education) which requires all public school districts to provide public education to students of all ability levels and LRE (least restricted environment) which says that students with disabilities should be in mainstream classes as much as possible while still being successful.

However, while schools or school districts cannot choose to deprive students of special ed. services, parents can opt to not let their kids be tested or can even pull them out of special ed. It rarely happens at my school (I can only recall one situation and the kid was able to to get passing grades without accommodations, so the parent might have been right anyway) but I can imagine in communities where there is more of a stigma around learning disabilities that more parents might put their pride over their kid's best interest.

Well I would hold myself and others I know as anecdotal proof of this, at all levels. My parents had a decent literary classics collection I was required to read from like 10-16 (but I enjoyed reading and voraciously read prior to that). Everything from House of Seven Gables to Crime and Punishment to War and Peace during that time. As a counter example, my wife's family didn't have shit in the house but some books on plants and a very outdated Britannica collection. Consequently, she struggles with reading.

I hear you. While neither of my parents were super educated, they always surrounded me with books and constantly had me reading, so it was something I grew to love at an early age. When that sort of environment is not created in a home, it does put kids at a disadvantage. I think a big part of the challenge is if the parents didn't get much of an education themselves, it's hard for them to push their kids to do something they didn't and don't do. It's one of those things where they know it's good, but only indirectly, so it's often not something they push. Also, if they're busy working multiple jobs, they aren't around to enforce their kid's behavior during their free time. I do notice that usually, though not always, the students whose parents have more education have higher lexiles.

We've talked about integrating silent reading into the school day, but there's a lot of debate about the effectiveness of silent reading and that also means giving up something else we're teaching, which nobody ever wants to do (and reasonably so). So I think it again comes back to building the culture of reading, but that's a long-game move.

 

[Dak]

It's a federal law called IDEA (Individuals with disabilities education act). The law includes FAPE (free and appropriate public education) which requires all public school districts to provide public education to students of all ability levels and LRE (least restricted environment) which says that students with disabilities should be in mainstream classes as much as possible while still being successful.

However, while schools or school districts cannot choose to deprive students of special ed. services, parents can opt to not let their kids be tested or can even pull them out of special ed. It rarely happens at my school (I can only recall one situation and the kid was able to to get passing grades without accommodations, so the parent might have been right anyway) but I can imagine in communities where there is more of a stigma around learning disabilities that more parents might put their pride over their kid's best interest.



I hear you. While neither of my parents were super educated, they always surrounded me with books and constantly had me reading, so it was something I grew to love at an early age. When that sort of environment is not created in a home, it does put kids at a disadvantage. I think a big part of the challenge is if the parents didn't get much of an education themselves, it's hard for them to push their kids to do something they didn't and don't do. It's one of those things where they know it's good, but only indirectly, so it's often not something they push. Also, if they're busy working multiple jobs, they aren't around to enforce their kid's behavior during their free time. I do notice that usually, though not always, the students whose parents have more education have higher lexiles.

We've talked about integrating silent reading into the school day, but there's a lot of debate about the effectiveness of silent reading and that also means giving up something else we're teaching, which nobody ever wants to do (and reasonably so). So I think it again comes back to building the culture of reading, but that's a long-game move.

Excellent post, no further comment.

 

[viewerfromnihil]

Fuck all that. I flunked one student this semester. He skipped nine classes. Nine fucking classes, when all his peers were coming to class and working. And two other students got Ds. Shit writing is shit writing, no way around it.

I'm the same way. Out of 60 students in a level 100 history course, it's not unusual for me to fail one or two and hand out a few other Ds. Conversely, 20-30% will receive an A. At the 100 level, I don't set my expectations too high. If a student of mine puts in an honest effort and engages with the primary sources with something resembling an argument, they'll typically get no worse than a B. I give them a bit of slack on the writing aspect if they show me they can think, but that's leeway I take on account of it being a freshman course and history rather than English. I also tend to rip their first paper of the semester to shreds to light a fire under their asses for the second. It seems to work.

I've had some excel spreadsheet fun with the grade spread across different factors. Unremarkably, seniors tend to average a letter grade higher. Women average a letter grade higher than men. Women typically average a higher GPA, but a whole letter grade (sometimes a letter grade and a half depending on the assignment) seems a bit skewed, so I think there are some other factors at play here. Women constitute the majority of students at my Uni, but are underrepresented in my history courses. I suspect that gender norms tend to attract men to history while influencing women to choose a different elective, resulting in me receiving on average more of the higher achieving women. Or maybe I've just got a ton of lazy-ass, hungover frat boys.