Legalized ABORTION. Pros or Cons?

[The Winnipeg Warrior]

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/

Here's a raw topic.....sure to raise a few eyebrows, ruffle a few feathers, or perhaps raise a few temperatures. Good.....it stimulates converation.

Let's discuss it. Pros or cons. Personally, I'm against it. I think individuals should choose responsibility over stupidity. There's enough education out there to make a difference. So, why isn't it working?

When it comes to Freedom of Choice versus State Sanctioned abortions.....who really wins? An unwanted baby is brought into this world.....and at the same time.....a child with a "pre-existing death sentence" is disposed of.

In cases of family incest or date rape....I'm more Freedom of Choice. But when it comes to two 16 year olds that threw caution to the wind and threw snake-eyes, take care of your own bloody problem. Raise it or abort it. But get your hand out of my pocket. I refuse to pay. Period.

And regarding planned parenthood: I feel that China has adopted (pardon the pun) the right approach. One child per family unit, as pertaining to the law. It should be applied in other societies also. Not just in over-populated Third World nations, but over here in North America as well. We just don't see the problem here as readily.....with Family Allowances, Welfare, Employment Insurance, Child Tax Credits, and Subsidized Day Care. We're a mess over here, yet we deny it and point the finger at nations like India, Ethiopia, and Mexico. Hypocriitical is it not? Go to the mall and what do you see? One walks one crawls, one is being carried, one is being pushed in the stroller.....and another is growing in the mother's belly. If you don't think we have a problem over here, think again. The earth is already stretched at the seams regarding our carrying capacity and limiting factor. How much room and how many resources are left?

Bottom line: there are far too many of us to feed, water, house, clothe, medicate, educate, train, and employ. And that goes for the G8 nations as well. Not just our Third World neighbors.

There it is. My cards are on the table. What say you?

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

once again, the case of overpopulation comes into effect and im all for it.
the more humans that die, the better off the earth will be.

 

[Crycheck]

I think it's your own choice whether you want to abort or not, as long as you pay for it yourself.
If I got pregnant, I would let some other people tell me that I can't abort my child, even though I don't want it and am willing to pay for it myself.

(I'm a guy so this will never happen)

 

[Demiurge]

People of good stock with the ability to properly raise children who have abortions for their selfish convenience are disgraces. People of poor stock who have children they cannot raise properly should be subjected to mandatory abortion and sterilization.

 

[Birkenau]

I concur with Krigloch the Furious and Demiurge, the less white trash we have running around the better. There's obviously going to be a rather large pro-abortion slant on this forum due to black metal/ANUS/death metal ideology etc.

 

[speed]

People of good stock with the ability to properly raise children who have abortions for their selfish convenience are disgraces. People of poor stock who have children they cannot raise properly should be subjected to mandatory abortion and sterilization.

I agree with that.

 

[Seikojin]

I am a guy, so my perspective is limited. I know that alot of women who havent had children would be pro choice. I think the testimonials on the forementioned site attest to this. But biologically pregnancy alters a bearers perspective through chemical imbalance. It's like being on a hard drug. Afterwards your perspective of life is altered.

I think the same thing can happen to a man if he is exposed to the process long enough. His biological factories would probably produce estrogen at rediculous rates when subject to nurturing alot. So for that I can see how even a stalwart male turn from pro choice to pro life.

Given that, I can't say for sure if I would 180 after nurturing a baby into being... But as I stand now, I am pro choice. It would take alot of estrogen I think to make me flip my decision.

To me its not about taking a life or even about lack of responsability as a parent as much as it is the simple financial aspect. If I am not in the magical zone to raise a child, I will not be comfortable having one in my life to raise.

 

[derek]

Really do not care. I'm sensible enough to never end up impregnating a girl when i cannot take care of a child, and outside that i do not care what women decide to do with their unborn babies. I have no moral reasons to be against it, but i have no feelings to support its continued practice either. I do, however, disagree with the catholic church on its position that its a human "the moment dad came".

edit...i was also just thinking, with regards to that website initially posted. I think there is a point where living tissue actually becomes a human with a fully functional brain and the ability to "experience" the world...and i dont think it happens immediately after conception. So...while that site is obviously based heavily on shock factor...surely wouldnt many of those aborted foetus's be simply living tissue? As much alive as bacteria we kill in our toilets or kitchens everyday? I avoided abortion in honours ethics, so i dont think about it often...someone correct any of the above, if i fucked up.

 

[speed]

I have never understood the Pro-Lifer's. First, there are billions of poor people starving every day, and the Pro-Lifers really dont care--or they send missionaries to trade food for baptism (which is disgusting). Second, when these poor mothers have these would have been aborted kids, and then have to work dead end jobs because welfare has a five year max, and on top of that, they have no idea how to raise kids because they were improperly raised themselves: where are the Pro-Lifer's? They could care less what happens to the kid, as long as he is born.

Furthermore, do the pro-lifer's realize, that the reason the poor are pumping out so many babies, is because of child support? SInce welfare runs out, having a kid is the only other way to get money from the gov. Most of them live of the child support payments they receive from every child they pump out. The gov will hunt the deadbeat dads down, and they will garnish their wages. Right now, this is how 90% of the single mothers live. I am not shitting here. So basically, we Pro-Lifers and our social service system, encourages poor dumb single mothers who have no idea what they are doing, to have kids to support themselves.

And Manitoba, why the hell do you post such a website? If we talk about the Iraq war, do you want me to post pictures of amputated children? A little respect and decorum is necessary here.

 

[Seikojin]

I can understand some peoples rampant pro life choices... Most of it in my perspective is a chemical imbalance. They just feel life is more important then than their livelyhoods (sp). Given a dose of testosterone (to counterbalance the estrogene) I would like to see how they respond then. Some I am sure would say pro life then as well, but they will add in things like: it will be hard, I may give the kid up for adoption, things like that.

An interesting thing to find out: how many unaborted children die of external causes and sickness that are born to all economic classes. It would be interesting to me at least to know how many children die before they are capable of self sustaining. I wouldnt be suprised if many kids are dying because their parents cannot afford to raise them. Parents who knew before their conception that they wouldnt be able to care for them.

They need a site dedicated to showing the deaths of children from deadbeat money suckling parents.

 

[Vital Remains]

Well i think it should be legal up to maybe three or four months into pregnancy, when the brain isnt developed yet. But then again i think a woman should be able to do what the fuck she wants with her body. I guess if it doesnt have a birth certificate it doesnt legally exist yet, so fuck, why not

 

[no country for old wainds]

People of good stock with the ability to properly raise children who have abortions for their selfish convenience are disgraces.

I'm inclined to agree with your post, but with the population in dire need of culling I'd say "disgraces" is a bit excessive as things currently stand. I imagine there are more helpful things people of "good stock" can do than raise children. Still, I suppose "for their selfish convenience" implies they aren't planning to do anything helpful.

Let's put your post in more general terms anyway:

"People of good stock with the ability to do something productive who do nothing which doesn't cater for their selfish convenience are disgraces.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

If someone isn't capable/ready to be a parent they shouldn't be forced to be so, theres enough shitty parents as there as it is. I'm not too concerned about the whole "abortion is murder" aspect because ultimatley the birth of the child would probably lead to more organic destruction then the elimination of a single fetus does, especially if the kid is born in the 1st world. I prefer to look at the bigger picture, ecosystems not single subjects...

 

[Lord SteveO]

The choice should be up to the child, or in this case the nearest thing to it which is its mother. If a girl wants to raise a child let her do it. But if she knows full well she can't support a family yet and wnats out then it is her choice. She brought the baby into the world, she can choose how to raise it, if at all.

I agree with Speed on the Pro-life camp. Where the hell are they when a girl is forced to raise a child on a few dollars a week in some 3rd world hell-hole? Where are they when children are starving in African warzones?

Pro-lifers are just a joke, they sit at home in their cushy, warm middle-class houses with their familes and bibles and moan about hpw people with freedom to do what they want run their lives. They only make a fuss about things that upset their little christian views or their own messed up morals.
Where are their voices when something really big or important is going on?

As far as controlling overpopulation, i would not go as far as China, but something needs to be done. 3rd world countries should just be left to develop. But in the developed west we should be beyond the stage where you walk down the street and see 20+ teenage girls with 2 kids each. We need to get some sense knocked into the vast majority of the population, and not just about reproduction, about a great list of things!

 

[Horus]

Abortion is neither good, nor is it bad. Here's how I see it.

The Good
- Loose teenage girls (and by loose, I mean they're sluts, if you want to be brutally honest) accidentally get pregnant one night, while being gang-banged by 2 football players. Apparently, a 16 year old has neither the physical nor the emntal capacity to mother a baby, and doesn't want to have to take care of it. Abortion is a way out of that whole mess.
- You could be aborting the next Sadam Husein or James Manson.
- You could be aborting the next George W. Bush. (no offense to any pro-Bush people, but he's been doing some retarted shit lately.)
- Working in an Abortion clinic provides more jobs for society!!!
-Population control. We won't have too man y people polluting- err I mean populating the planet.
- Killing a Zygote can be considered the equivalent to killing an amoeba, or any other one celled organism.

The Bad
- You could be aborting the next Jesus Christ, or the next Martin Luther King.
- Catholic extremist Right-to-Lifers will be up your ass for ever. And not in the butt buddies way. I mean they won't ever leave you alone for a long time.
- It gives teenage girls more of an excuse to have unprotected sex.
- A matter of conciense. But that also depends on if somebody feels guilt about killing a one celled organism.

 

[MasterOLightning]

I took a class on gender and society and this was one of the major issues. Some observations:

--Pro-life and pro-choice viewpoints are developed almost always as a way for a woman to reinforce her life decisions, i.e. a family-oriented, non-working woman will be pro-life because abortion devalues her chosen lifestyle, and a working woman will be pro-choice because that protects her career.

--Religion is a major factor, clearly. Religious women tend to be more dependent on a traditional male breadwinner structure, while less religious women lean more towards careers. This underlies the first point.

--People speak of overpopulation in this thread, but the 1st world is suffering from low birthrates as it is, and abortion is not so readily available in the third world. Immigration is the only thing protecting most of NA and Europe from declining populations. Abortion and birth control availability matters less than
whether children are a liability (1st world) or an asset (3rd world).

--A forgotten point made by many pro-lifers is that abortion places levels of value on human lives. So if fetuses are the least valuable, are the disabled the next least valuable? How soon before we kill them to prevent them from suffering? (to twist the argument of those who say most abortions would have had bad lives anyway.) Pretty soon a hierarchy develops. Pro-choice tacitly approves eugenics, which is something many people on this board support, but is dreaded by our liberal population. Pro-lifers point to Nazi Germany as an example of what happens when a state starts off by having abortions/sterilizations be acceptable. Again, many of you won't see this as a bad thing.

There are other things still to consider. I'm pro-choice because I feel the government shouldn't regulate morality. They shouldn't fund abortions, however, since this infringes on the morality of others.

 

[derek]

We kill shit every damn day and then we eat it or build something where its house used to be. Why we assign so much more weight to our own "blessed offspring" i dont fucking know.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

abortion is so clearly a choice, a freedom and not a right or something women should have to ask or be granted permission for.

 

[troopsofdoom]

I agree that obortion should be a choice for women ther is already to many unwanted kids on the planet.

 

[Dän]

I agree that obortion should be a choice for women ther is already to many unwanted kids on the planet.

Surely the father should be involved to. That is, of course, she was raped or something aweful like that, and i rekon thats the only time abortion should be ok. Being a sudo-Christian i am obviously against the idea of abortion but i do think that there are times when it is neccassary, no just to limit populations, but for other reasons.

The main reason i am against it, in part, is because, obviously, the kid doesnt get a say in it, and its not fair to say that there are enough bad parents in this world coz it doesnt mean that kid is going to turn out to be an asshole as well