Lord of the Rings

[genaatloos]

well, i searched the forum.. but couldn't find a thread like this (or i didn't search good enough..) So i made a thread about LOTR because i've got a question, and i think many know more about it

When i read LOTR the first time, i realized one thing; there was no certain religion to be found in the three books. Yeah, there are things that maybe have something to do about a religion.. such as the beautiful world where people are going after death (over the sea, green country, long white beaches etc. etc.), but the book doesnt really tell if thats reallity or not. Because Frodo, Gandalf, Bilbo etc. also go to a beautiful country over the sea with long white beaches.

Then i read the Silmarillion. There Tolkien tells a story about Ilúvatar and the singing Ainur. Ilúvatar shows the Ainur Middle-Earth and after that he creates Middle-Earth. The Ainur move to the new world and see the Elves, the human come and one of the Ainur even creates a new population: the dwarwes.
ofcourse there is also evil: one of the Ainur is a bad one and longes for power, Melkor (morgoth).

And now my question: Is this story created because the book needed a religion? Or is this 'reality'? Because i think that the place where Ilúvatar and the Ainur live, is also the Immortal land across the sea. in that case its 'reality' because Frodo goes there with a ship. On the other hand, when people die, they also go there and you can see that as a sort of Heaven or Valhalla. I thought about this question, and i find it very difficult because the whole book is full of magic and mysterious things.
do some people know more about this subject?

(oh and when people want to tell or ask more about the history of middle-earth.. would be a nice thread then)

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

Why do you separate religion and reality?

 

[genaatloos]

Why do you separate religion and reality?

yeah, you could say a religion is true (altough no religion of this moment is reality in my eyes).. i separate religion and reality because i want to know if tolkien ment this story as an legend or myth, which is created by the elves (i think they are the one to create it).. or to tell the real history of Middle-Earth.
but when it is created by the elves, you can also ask yourself if it's true or not ofcourse. well, i think that my question was not really clear about that.. thanks for the comment TheLastWithPaganBlood. so:
Is this story written as an true history, or is it fantasy.. created by the elves?

(i hope i do get clear enough now, otherwise.. tell me)

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

No, but what I'm saying is, can't it be "gods" that are real?

 

[genaatloos]

Yeah ofcourse that could be, in that case you could say it is an true history of Middle-Earth i think.

 

[yllmar]

One of the reasons that the Lord of the Rings was written, was the frustration Tolkien had that the British did not have a surviving mythology. He decided to invent one, borrowing heavily from other myths in Europe, particularly Scandinavian beliefs.

 

[genaatloos]

yeah, i knew that .. i saw the appendices of the Lord of the Ring DVD

 

[Celtik Militia]

yeah i was actually wondering about a Tolkien religion, and i didnt know about it considering i've only read The Hobbit and LOTR.

by the way, that thing in which the living can join the dead by sea and go live there in the same land sounds a lot more like celtic mythology than norse. interresting..

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

He didn't borrow exclusively from scandinavian myth, just a lot...

 

[genaatloos]

yeah i was actually wondering about a Tolkien religion, and i didnt know about it considering i've only read The Hobbit and LOTR.

by the way, that thing in which the living can join the dead by sea and go live there in the same land sounds a lot more like celtic mythology than norse. interresting..

You really should read The Silmarillion, if you are interested in more of middle-earth, the Eldar, the rise of men etc

 

[Anglorfin]

And now my question: Is this story created because the book needed a religion? Or is this 'reality'? Because i think that the place where Ilúvatar and the Ainur live, is also the Immortal land across the sea. in that case its 'reality' because Frodo goes there with a ship. On the other hand, when people die, they also go there and you can see that as a sort of Heaven or Valhalla. I thought about this question, and i find it very difficult because the whole book is full of magic and mysterious things.
do some people know more about this subject?

Way before Lord of the Rings was published Tolkien had been working on this idea of a folk legend exclusive to Great Britain. In fact, earlier in the history of his writings he even named Britain to be the mythical island, Tol Eressea, the 'Lonely Isle'. I'm not too sure what you mean by reality. Do you mean if the religion created in Middle Earth was supposed to be real IN Middle Earth? Or are you saying whether or not Tolkien himself believed in it?

Tolkien himself was devoutly Christian. I wish I had the proper quotation to this but I can tell you what his sentiments were about creating a 'real' religion. He believed that all religions regardless of origin had what he called "inescapable truths". He believed that these concepts and even sometimes more concrete story ideas could be found in every religion. And he also believed that this was no accident, but was further proof of a god working through all of humanity.

If you want to go further into it remember that the Silmarillion was not published during Tolkien's lifetime. The Silmarillion is nothing but a collection of the most complete and recently revised stories of Middle Earth in the 1st and 2nd age. So you're question is kinda backwards. You ask if he had to make a religion to support what was in the LotR. But it was very much the opposite. Tolkien was sitting in his room with all his stories and histories of different peoples and relized that he did not have a true epic story that could bind everything together in a conclusive way. So that's when he began writing Lord of the Rings.


Another general note. Frodo goes over the sea and enters into the Undying Lands. However, Illuvatar does not live on earth and is not tangible in any way. The only god figures that live in the Undying Lands are the Valar and the Maiar. Sort of like the angels, but none of them are the big creator. And death is also a bit tricky. Tolkien deliberately left the fate of men in shadow. However when anything in Arda dies its spirit rests for a time in Mandos, the Halls of Waiting. Elves rest here and are eventually reincarnated. Nobody is sure about what happens to men after they goto Mandos.

/edit: Oops I didn't see what else you said as a reply to your own post.

i separate religion and reality because i want to know if tolkien ment this story as an legend or myth, which is created by the elves (i think they are the one to create it).. or to tell the real history of Middle-Earth.
but when it is created by the elves, you can also ask yourself if it's true or not ofcourse. well, i think that my question was not really clear about that.. thanks for the comment TheLastWithPaganBlood. so:
Is this story written as an true history, or is it fantasy.. created by the elves?

The religion is not created by the Elves. The higher powers are real and at least in the time of Middle Earth, were very active in the world. The Valar have appeared many times in physical form both to Men and Elves. Aman, or the Undying Lands were at one time a tangible place that anyone could reach by sailing far enough into the West. At the end of the 2nd Age with the final defeat of Morgoth the shape of the world was changed from flat to round and only the Elves could sail the "straight way" and reach Aman. All of this is to be regarded as fact within the books.

 

[genaatloos]

well, this the answer i was searching for. oh and a little comment: you said my question was backwards, but it could be he wanted a religion after the books. (Because he was always busy with perfecting his works). But know i know it is written as history. I thank you for the answer.

if i have another question i will ask it, and if someone else needs to know.. ask me if you want

 

[Anglorfin]

Actually to be 100% accurate, the evolution that became the stories of Middle Earth started with Tolkien's love of language. Before Anything else he created various languages. Quenyan (or high Elven) being the first I believe. Then from there Sindarin, Numenorean, Dwarvish, and others.

So Tolkien worked on these languages, and realized for them to be believed he would need to place them within a context. He even went so far as to try and connect the dots and see his made-up languages evolve as real languages would through generations of history. This was his idea behind creating the mythical world of Middle Earth. He started with a very macro concept; tracing different factions of people through various splits, merges, and intermingling of culture. The end product, or towards the later part of his life, was much more focused on the micro. That is, micro being the specific stories, people and places that defined Middle Earth.

Anyway I wrote a long-winded reply yet again. But I do love Tolkien. So I would say in terms of the evolution of Tolkien's creations. Language would be first. Followed by the rough history and structure of the people of Middle Earth (including I would guess a type of religious structure). And then finally stories such as the one told in LotR.

There are also very numerous references in LotR to older stories. Some recounted in the Silmarillion and some that are found elsewhere. Most noteably listen whenever Aragorn sings. Or remember the gift-giving scene with Galadriel. Frodo's gift is the essence of a specific star mentioned all throughout the mythologies and is a big part of the conclusion of the Silmarillion.