Males and Females

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

Saparmurat, if it's any help, many women go through the same thing too - I'm sure you've heard the whole "I don't like girls, I get along with guys sooo much better" spiel from younger/insecure little ladies, IMO it's considered a rite of passage and maturity to realize that it's not "women," it's just "the women who make it their life's goal to justify misogyny."

And then you consider things like how we are socialized to behave in certain ways, how different the challenges faced by both sexes throughout life are, and then how everyone handles it in their own way which may be in your eyes "good" or "terribad," that's when everyone just starts to look like people.

/bleeding heart

So basically saying we need to stop labeling people and putting them in little boxes, gender included? If so, I would absolutely agree. You're a human with two X chromosomes and I have an X with a Y, and it ends there. The way we see each other is basically just a result of our conditioning from society. If that's not what you're saying, too bad, that's how I tend to see things.
That's what's driving my little inner conflict right now, because I want women to be treated the same as me, good or bad. If you ask me, there's no better way to support the rights of women. Unfortunately, there are too many "feminists" who want "payback" for centuries of sexism and think that in a perfect world men would be stripped of all their human rights.

 

[damnromulans]

Well I wasn't saying that at all - there are traits "masculine" and "feminine" that cannot be denied in both sexes that spill over into personal lives, especially sex and romantic relationships. I do think in WORK and ACADEMICS of most sorts we should be at a point where you can ignore someone's gender and focus on their performance and output.

What I meant was more that you can't ascribe the worst things people of either sex do as being something all people of that sex/gender do. Not all women expect men to pay for everything and pander to them in a weird one-sided way, and not all men like to fight every single guy who looks at his woman at the bar, yeah? It's kind of like blaming hipsters for stuff.

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

Got it. I like the people, man or woman, who break those molds best. And blaming a subculture for the decline of civilization in general has been going on forever. Ten years ago we were all blaming goth kids for our lives sucking.

 

[monoxide_child]

think that in a perfect world men would be stripped of all their human rights.

pre-Moses, there were societies like this^^^ societies where all the men were so much stronger (in the upper body) and alot taller than any of the females where the women ran the show and the males were just used for the heavy lifting crap that women couldn't physically do (all these types of jobs have now been replaced by forklifts)

blaming a subculture for the decline of civilization in general has been going on forever. Ten years ago we were all blaming goth kids for our lives sucking.

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

Most primitive social mammals are matriarchal (see lions, elephants, apes). I don't think a species that calls itself civilized should favor one gender over the other. What's most harmful is when one group rules over another with violence, which is unfortunately human nature.

 

[PhlegethonVeins]

So basically saying we need to stop labeling people and putting them in little boxes, gender included? If so, I would absolutely agree. You're a human with two X chromosomes and I have an X with a Y, and it ends there. The way we see each other is basically just a result of our conditioning from society. If that's not what you're saying, too bad, that's how I tend to see things.
That's what's driving my little inner conflict right now, because I want women to be treated the same as me, good or bad. If you ask me, there's no better way to support the rights of women. Unfortunately, there are too many "feminists" who want "payback" for centuries of sexism and think that in a perfect world men would be stripped of all their human rights.

The problem is modern feminism is largely led by people who twist statistics and use shit studies to make women feel victimized, and to top it off dig into everything possible to scream "its the patriarchy!, while ignoring what is unbalanced in the female favor. This happens to the point that they will organize vulgar smear campaigns against anyone who dares to try and fight for any male rights.

 

[damnromulans]

I think it would be interesting for everyone to spend one month as a member of the opposite sex. You'd see a lot more than you are able to currently.

Why yes I do feel victimized when I walk to the supermarket wearing jeans and a winter jacket and people (100% men) yell out their car windows at me and make gross sexually charged comments or tell me to smile. Or when strange people grope me at bars.

Would you say the answer to rape is "don't rape people" or "don't put yourself in situations where you could get raped?"

 

[Dak]

Both, because we must assume potential rapists won't listen. IE, don't go out on the street at night in Baltimore in a short skirt etc. and expect safety.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

9:55am
Richard Browning
so yeah, you tell me what you think of what she said...
"I don't think I can date an introvert. And you're a little misanthropic for me. You weren't very friendly/social with my friends and when you did speak to Joci you were a bit condescending. It's important that someone I'm seeing tries to make a good impression on my friends."

After this, all I could think about for the rest of the story was this:



Seriously meeting friends on a second "date" is an awful idea. She sounds like the type of girl who has her values all out of proportion and consequently ends up with assholes because they impressed her friends etc., then later cries "why do I always end up with jerks?"

 

[PhlegethonVeins]

I think it would be interesting for everyone to spend one month as a member of the opposite sex. You'd see a lot more than you are able to currently.

Why yes I do feel victimized when I walk to the supermarket wearing jeans and a winter jacket and people (100% men) yell out their car windows at me and make gross sexually charged comments or tell me to smile. Or when strange people grope me at bars.

Would you say the answer to rape is "don't rape people" or "don't put yourself in situations where you could get raped?"

I wouldn't say that is the answer to rape, no.

However if you do some research you will see that rape incidents aren't nearly as high as the one in every four figure that feminist heads push on people. Go ahead and look at the questions and study groups used in that particular research.

You will also find, if you do some research on sexual assault, that there is an alarming amount of cases with women forcing men into sex, at least far more than the majority of people would assume. The only thing is, these cases aren't classified as rape, because in the legal definition the victim has to be penetrated in some manner, therefore making men impossible to rape unless a female chooses to go at his asshole.

As far as being out, I never see men shout at women around here whilst going about their business in public. In bars I have never put my hands on a woman that I wasn't currently in a relationship with, however I have had women I didn't know grab my ass and try to rub my junk under the counter.

But you see, that's the thing. Rape should have NOTHING to do with the feminist movement. It is something that affects us all. It's quite impossible to achieve equal rights when you're only looking at one side of the spectrum's problems.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I wouldn't say that is the answer to rape, no.

However if you do some research you will see that rape incidents aren't nearly as high as the one in every six number that feminist heads push on people. Go ahead and look at the questions and study groups used in that particular research.

It depends on how rape is being defined, but the rate is clearly high enough that we have a major social issue that needs to be dealt with.

You will also find, if you do some research on sexual assault, that there is an alarming amount of cases with women forcing men into sex, at least far more than the majority of people would assume. The only thing is, these cases aren't classified as rape, because in the legal definition the victim has to be penetrated in some manner, therefore making men impossible to rape unless a female chooses to go at his asshole.

While I agree that this is an issue, because the number for BOTH men and women who are sexually assaulted is really high, you do realize that if the definition of rape was redefined to include these kinds of sexual assault, it would also include correlate cases of men on women sexual violence and thus would increase the number of women who were raped as well.

As far as being out, I never see men shout at women around here whilst going about their business in public.

Easier for you or I to not notice when this happens since it's not happening to us. It's also less likely to happen to girls around us, because it's the kind of thing that most often happens to a girl by herself or with other girls. That said, I've seen it happen so much in Oakland and LA. Don't know where you live or what the culture is like there.

[quotes]In bars I have never put my hands on a woman that I wasn't currently in a relationship with, however I have had women I didn't know grab my ass and try to rub my junk under the counter.[/quote]

Nice. That means you're a decent human being. Doesn't say anything about any other person on the planet.

But you see, that's the thing. Rape should have NOTHING to do with the feminist movement. It is something that affects us all. It's quite impossible to achieve equal rights when you're only looking at one side of the spectrum's problems.

Why should rape have nothing to do with the feminist movement? I'm sorry, that's just so unbelievably naive. Don't you realize that one of the core elements of feminism is for women to provide a support network for other women? When a women is raped, that is certainly a time when they are in need of support. I think it should be obvious that for many women that is a time when they specifically need strength and support from other women.

Also, no matter how you break down the numbers, rape is an issue that effects women more than men. It is a major issue that many women have to deal with. Therefore it is obviously a massive concern to a feminist.

I would also like to add that I think you're presenting a straw man of a feminist. Sure, there might be a few extremists who wouldn't care about men who were the victims of rape or sexual assault, but the vast are concerned with the issue at large.

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

Both, because we must assume potential rapists won't listen. IE, don't go out on the street at night in Baltimore in a short skirt etc. and expect safety.

I disagree. The only time a woman has rape coming to her is maybe if after she consents to sex and she already lets the man insert his erection into her vagina and then, right before he comes, she says "no, I don't want to do this". That's even a stretch, really. Men should be shamed from rape, it's the lowest and least manly thing a man can do.

I wouldn't say that is the answer to rape, no.

However if you do some research you will see that rape incidents aren't nearly as high as the one in every four figure that feminist heads push on people. Go ahead and look at the questions and study groups used in that particular research.

You will also find, if you do some research on sexual assault, that there is an alarming amount of cases with women forcing men into sex, at least far more than the majority of people would assume. The only thing is, these cases aren't classified as rape, because in the legal definition the victim has to be penetrated in some manner, therefore making men impossible to rape unless a female chooses to go at his asshole.

As far as being out, I never see men shout at women around here whilst going about their business in public. In bars I have never put my hands on a woman that I wasn't currently in a relationship with, however I have had women I didn't know grab my ass and try to rub my junk under the counter.

But you see, that's the thing. Rape should have NOTHING to do with the feminist movement. It is something that affects us all. It's quite impossible to achieve equal rights when you're only looking at one side of the spectrum's problems.

I agree, and it gets worse. I've seen some "feminist statistics" that say up to 70 and 80 percent of women have been raped. Catherine McKinnon says that all heterosexual sex is rape because women are not on equal footing with men in our society and therefore incapable of proper consent.

As far as cat calls, I think women should just do it back, but in a really crude way that makes men uncomfortable. For example, "HEY STUD! I WANT TO PUT ON MY STRAP ON AND FUCK THE SHIT OUT OF YOUR ASS!". That would level the playing field.

Also, yes, rape affects everyone, regardless of gender. Gay men rape each other. Lesbians rape each other. Sometimes a woman feeds a man full of Viagra, ties him up, and rapes him (http://www.huliq.com/10178/russian-woman-avenges-robber-viagra-and-blow-dryer-cords). Straight men rape other straight men in prison to assert their power. Straight girls rape other straight girls in high school locker rooms for the same reason. Today's feminists are in denial of this because they are too tied to their fanatical rhetoric.

edit:

Why should rape have nothing to do with the feminist movement? I'm sorry, that's just so unbelievably naive. Don't you realize that one of the core elements of feminism is for women to provide a support network for other women? When a women is raped, that is certainly a time when they are in need of support. I think it should be obvious that for many women that is a time when they specifically need strength and support from other women.

Also, no matter how you break down the numbers, rape is an issue that effects women more than men. It is a major issue that many women have to deal with. Therefore it is obviously a massive concern to a feminist.

I would also like to add that I think you're presenting a straw man of a feminist. Sure, there might be a few extremists who wouldn't care about men who were the victims of rape or sexual assault, but the vast are concerned with the issue at large.

Sure, but like I was saying, feminism is becoming polluted by the ideals of extremists. It seems to be endemic among all liberal movements. Society is full of extremist blowhards, and their voices ring louder than ever before.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I agree, and it gets worse. I've seen some "feminist statistics" that say up to 70 and 80 percent of women have been raped. Catherine McKinnon says that all heterosexual sex is rape because women are not on equal footing with men in our society and therefore incapable of proper consent.

Obviously that McKinnon woman is an idiot. But that's sort of like pointing to Westburo Baptist Church and acting like that's your average Christian.

Also, yes, rape affects everyone, regardless of gender. Gay men rape each other. Lesbians rape each other. Sometimes a woman feeds a man full of Viagra, ties him up, and rapes him (http://www.huliq.com/10178/russian-woman-avenges-robber-viagra-and-blow-dryer-cords). Straight men rape other straight men in prison to assert their power. Straight girls rape other straight girls in high school locker rooms for the same reason. Today's feminists are in denial of this because they are too tied to their fanatical rhetoric.

Again, I think you're pointing to the "tea partiers" of the feminist movement and making it like that's you're garden variety feminist. I've talked to countless women who consider themselves feminists and can't remember one instance of one who is in denial about other kinds of rape. Have you actually met people who deny this stuff or is this just something you read from an extremist?

Sure, but like I was saying, feminism is becoming polluted by the ideals of extremists. It seems to be endemic among all liberal movements. Society is full of extremist blowhards, and their voices ring louder than ever before.

I totally disagree that feminism is being polluted by extremists. From my experience it's becoming more open minded and critical of fixed notions of the category of "woman." By and large, most feminists are working to become more inclusive. It's working to bridge with queer studies, ethnic studies, post structuralism, post colonialism etc. I would say it's a more dynamic intellectual movement than it's ever been before. The loudest are not the majority. They're just the loudest.

 

[PhlegethonVeins]

It depends on how rape is being defined, but the rate is clearly high enough that we have a major social issue that needs to be dealt with.

"According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%. "

Yeah, its an issue and a horrible crime, that said, its been plummeting in frequency over the course of the last few decades. My issue lies with misinformation presented by people leading these movements.

While I agree that this is an issue, because the number for BOTH men and women who are sexually assaulted is really high, you do realize that if the definition of rape was redefined to include these kinds of sexual assault, it would also include correlate cases of men on women sexual violence and thus would increase the number of women who were raped as well.

How exactly would including cases where a woman forces intercourse increase numbers against women as well? By current definition the victim needs to be penetrated. If a man is forced into intercourse by a woman, it doesn't fall into this category.

Easier for you or I to not notice when this happens since it's not happening to us. It's also less likely to happen to girls around us, because it's the kind of thing that most often happens to a girl by herself or with other girls. That said, I've seen it happen so much in Oakland and LA. Don't know where you live or what the culture is like there.

You're right, it is something we would witness less. I get that, I was just including what little observation I could have on the table.

Nice. That means you're a decent human being. Doesn't say anything about any other person on the planet.

Aye, ditto to my above statement.

Why should rape have nothing to do with the feminist movement? I'm sorry, that's just so unbelievably naive. Don't you realize that one of the core elements of feminism is for women to provide a support network for other women? When a women is raped, that is certainly a time when they are in need of support. I think it should be obvious that for many women that is a time when they specifically need strength and support from other women.

Okay, maybe that was overstated. However, let me ask you this. Why is it that in the rapid decline of rape, new ideals concerning it are rearing their head within the feminist community? Why is it that just recently things like 'rape culture' are coming to the table just now. And why on earth would a group meant to empower individuals feed them inflated statistics, only increasing the feeling of victimization?

I would also like to add that I think you're presenting a straw man of a feminist. Sure, there might be a few extremists who wouldn't care about men who were the victims of rape or sexual assault, but the vast are concerned with the issue at large.

Up until recently, I would had agreed with this. And I still do, regarding the majority of people that actually call themselves feminist. The majority of them fall more under humanist views than anything though. My words are in referral to the views of numerous figureheads in feminism, for the sole reason as they're the ones in power of the misinformation fed to numerous feminist groups.

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

Obviously that McKinnon woman is an idiot. But that's sort of like pointing to Westburo Baptist Church and acting like that's your average Christian.




Again, I think you're pointing to the "tea partiers" of the feminist movement and making it like that's you're garden variety feminist. I've talked to countless women who consider themselves feminists and can't remember one instance of one who is in denial about other kinds of rape. Have you actually met people who deny this stuff or is this just something you read from an extremist?



I totally disagree that feminism is being polluted by extremists. From my experience it's becoming more open minded and critical of fixed notions of the category of "woman." By and large, most feminists are working to become more inclusive. It's working to bridge with queer studies, ethnic studies, post structuralism, post colonialism etc. I would say it's a more dynamic intellectual movement than it's ever been before. The loudest are not the majority. They're just the loudest.

All feminists that I know personally are the open minded and rational kinds you describe. Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but the extremists seem to be squawking a lot louder lately. Unfortunately, some of the other feminists are beginning to listen.

I'm surprised you've never talked to a feminist who doesn't have such a skewed view of rape. I talked to at least a couple who insist that rape can only happen to a woman with only a man as the aggressor.

Okay, maybe that was overstated. However, let me ask you this. Why is it that in the rapid decline of rape, new ideals concerning it are rearing their head within the feminist community? Why is it that just recently things like 'rape culture' are coming to the table just now. And why on earth would a group meant to empower individuals feed them inflated statistics, only increasing the feeling of victimization?

I've been wondering the same things.

 

[skeptik]

Feminism is merely and simply the belief that men and women are equal, and frankly anybody that can't call themselves a feminist is an ass-backwards retard.

 

[PhlegethonVeins]

Feminism is merely and simply the belief that men and women are equal, and frankly anybody that can't call themselves a feminist is an ass-backwards retard.

A feminist is defined by the collective movement, as it was the movement that spawned the term. If said movement is pushing for things past equality, the definition of advocating equality between sexes can no longer apply.

 

[skeptik]

No. The central tenet that unites all feminist thought is the concept of gender equality. Anything that branches away from that is not in keeping with the spirit of the philosophy and ideology behind the term.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

As long as each individual is judged based on their character, actions, and ability, and not merely their sex what does it matter what definition you give it. All individuals have the political right and the moral need to be free and choose their own courses in life.

Individualism encompasses feminism.

 

[PhlegethonVeins]

No. The central tenet that unites all feminist thought is the concept of gender equality. Anything that branches away from that is not in keeping with the spirit of the philosophy and ideology behind the term.

My criticism, as clearly displayed in my statements is directed at the modern feminist movement, specifically those who perpetuate false information and those who attack others movements, like MRA's. This happens to be more than common within the modern feminist community, as acted upon by figureheads and others. If we wish to revoke their feminist title, fine, however they're still considered feminist by...well, everyone.