Males and Females

[skeptik]

The bottom line is this. If you agree with the following statement, you are a feminist regardless of whether or not it makes you feel like you have cooties or something: "I believe that women are entitled to the same right and privileges and treatment as men". That is at its core what feminism always has been and always will be, and there's no reason to shy away from the term because others may have abused, misused, and misappropriated it. The same thing can be said for countless other terms.

 

[PhlegethonVeins]

No one was arguing "Ewwww, I'm not a feminist."

 

[crimsonfloyd]

"According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%. "

Yeah, its an issue and a horrible crime, that said, its been plummeting in frequency over the course of the last few decades. My issue lies with misinformation presented by people leading these movements.

Well that's great that the rate of rape is falling. I'm just not sure who these people "leading deceptive movements" are. I kinda feel like you and SN are criticizing this boogyman feminist. For example, it took me about 30 seconds to find the following stat on RAINN (one of the leading rape prevention and treatment groups) website: Sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years.

Doesn't seem like they're trying to hide it.

How exactly would including cases where a woman forces intercourse increase numbers against women as well? By current definition the victim needs to be penetrated. If a man is forced into intercourse by a woman, it doesn't fall into this category.

OK, I was thinking more about other ways that women could sexually assult men, i.e. fondling, oral sex etc. Which a man could do as well. Obviously, women forcing men to have intercourse would only shift the numbers in one direction.

Okay, maybe that was overstated. However, let me ask you this. Why is it that in the rapid decline of rape, new ideals concerning it are rearing their head within the feminist community? Why is it that just recently things like 'rape culture' are coming to the table just now. And why on earth would a group meant to empower individuals feed them inflated statistics, only increasing the feeling of victimization?

The phrase "rape culture" has been around since the 70s, at least. So it's definitely not "rearing its head" now.

And in a lot of points, the "rape culture" phrase is valid, even if the rate of rape is falling. I'm not gonna try and make a case that we do or do not have a "rape culture", but there is certainly a case to be made. Consider what kind of sex your average teenage boy sees on a porn site as just one example.

I think the important point to remember is that even if the rate of rape is decreasing, that doesn't mean we don't have a responsibility to understand sources that still cause it to occur and try and critique and expose said sources.

Also, a really important question: where is the proof that feminists are feeding women inflated statistics? You're pounding that drum really hard, so the burden of proof is on you.

Up until recently, I would had agreed with this. And I still do, regarding the majority of people that actually call themselves feminist. The majority of them fall more under humanist views than anything though. My words are in referral to the views of numerous figureheads in feminism, for the sole reason as they're the ones in power of the misinformation fed to numerous feminist groups.

Who are these "figureheads" you refer to? I would like names, so I can at least have a sense of who in the heck you're talking about. Are you referring to scholars, celebrities, people who write zines? I have no idea who you're actually attacking.

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

Maybe it is simply that the most extremist feminists are the most vocal. I don't formally participate in feminist activism, I just support the concept of gender equality, which is what I see feminism to be. If you want specific examples of feminist extremists who are harmful to the movement, I would suggest looking into McKinnon, who I previously mentioned, along with Andrea Dworkin, Melissa Farley, and Sheila Jeffreys. These aren't obscure activists with no following, they are heavy hitters in the feminist movement. Sure, a great deal of feminists take issue with the opinions of these women (like Jeffreys' bigoted views on transgender people), but these women have a strong influence over feminism in general and furthermore into the practice of the law and government legislation. McKinnon, for example, came to the defense of the infamous Canadain child murderer Karla Homolka, laying the blame squarely upon Homolka's husband Paul Bernardo, though there was plenty of evidence that showed that Homolka was complicit in the rape and murder of two teenage girls. This resulted in Homolka being charged with mere manslaughter and ultimately being released (edit).
So yes, we can agree that a majority of feminists are egalitarians and welcome the participation and support of men. However, how can you still deny the (negative) influence of extremists on the movement?

 

[PhlegethonVeins]

Well that's great that the rate of rape is falling. I'm just not sure who these people "leading deceptive movements" are. I kinda feel like you and SN are criticizing this boogyman feminist. For example, it took me about 30 seconds to find the following stat on RAINN (one of the leading rape prevention and treatment groups) website: Sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years.

Doesn't seem like they're trying to hide it.

I didn't state there was a cover up to any degree. It doesn't change the fact that in womens studies classes across the country the skewed one in four statistic is taught as fact.

OK, I was thinking more about other ways that women could sexually assult men, i.e. fondling, oral sex etc. Which a man could do as well. Obviously, women forcing men to have intercourse would only shift the numbers in one direction.

Oral sex against a woman is already covered by law as rape. Fondling, obviously is not, but again that would obviously go both ways. You managed to miss the point here. We live in a society where men cannot be the victim of rape merely by the opposing sex forcing them to have intercourse with them. Focusing on only a single side of the issues doesn't lead to equality. It leads to greater imbalance.

but there is certainly a case to be made. Consider what kind of sex your average teenage boy sees on a porn site as just one example.

Yeah, that damn porn and it being inducted as a business around the same time rape cases began to plummet. RAAAAPPPPPEEEEEEE CULLLLTUREEEEE!!!11111!!!11

I think the important point to remember is that even if the rate of rape is decreasing, that doesn't mean we don't have a responsibility to understand sources that still cause it to occur and try and critique and expose said sources.

Of course its something to address and have on the radar. Doing such doesn't require labeling a culture where rape and sexual assault cases combined equate to the smallest percentage of crime as "rape culture" ; inflating statistics ; etc.

Also, a really important question: where is the proof that feminists are feeding women inflated statistics? You're pounding that drum really hard, so the burden of proof is on you.

Okay, how about the case with an elected official inflating numbers in order to push for change? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unreliable-statistics-rape-scare-victims.html

Who are these "figureheads" you refer to? I would like names, so I can at least have a sense of who in the heck you're talking about. Are you referring to scholars, celebrities, people who write zines? I have no idea who you're actually attacking.

Harriet Harman, Kira Cochrane, Jessica Valenti, you know, elected officials, people who run frequented feminist blogs and offer their information to women studies groups, journalists, people that generally have influence on what information is viewed on a public level, and how it is presented.

 

[Dak]

Consider what kind of sex your average teenage boy sees on a porn site as just one example.

They are looking at rape porn?

 

[monoxide_child]

The problem is modern feminism is largely led by people who twist statistics and use shit studies to make women feel victimized, and to top it off dig into everything possible to scream "its the patriarchy!, while ignoring what is unbalanced in the female favor. This happens to the point that they will organize vulgar smear campaigns against anyone who dares to try and fight for any male rights.

an example of feminists twisting statistics,
feminists bitch about how "the average" female makes so much less money than the "average male" while totally ignoring the fact that the average female is employed in totally different lines of work than the average male, so if a married female with a job notices that her husband makes more money, she should get up off her ass and do whatever-the-hell his job is, a hundred years ago there were tall, strong-as-hell men doing jobs that females couldn't physically do, but like i said earlier, all those jobs have been replaced by forklifts, a forklift operator makes at least 2 or 3 times as much as "the average employed female" and yet, there seems to be no female forklift operators, wtf?? if a female wants more money she should get up off her ass and get a higher-paying job-title, dammit

when strange people grope me at bars.

i agree with the point you're trying to make in this post, but seriously, if you have a problem with shit that happens in bars, just go to a fucking liquor-store and get drunk in your own fucking living room, seriously

Both, because we must assume potential rapists won't listen. IE, don't go out on the street at night in Baltimore in a short skirt etc. and expect safety.

or Dallas, or any other big city, pay attention to where the fuck you are, in every city there are places where a female outside of a car will be assumed to be "street-walker" type hooker, if you're a female walking and a male in a car makes any kind of attempt to talk to you, you're prolly in the part of town where he already thinks you're a hooker before he even opens his mouth to speak to you, if that guy tries to fuck you, then that's you're own damn fault for being a female pedestrian in the wrong part of town

Seriously meeting friends on a second "date" is an awful idea. She sounds like the type of girl who has her values all out of proportion and consequently ends up with assholes because they impressed her friends etc., then later cries "why do I always end up with jerks?"

i completely agree with this
meeting her friends on the second date was a bad idea, this is clearly definately the kind of girl who clearly wants you to impress her friends to the point that the ability or inability to do this will supercede whatever good or bad traits you make have

 

[monoxide_child]

They are looking at rape porn?

yes, teenage boys are looking at rape porn
and
no, i'm not being sarcastic

"rape porn" is a actually a thing that exists online and teenage boys are watching it just the same as teenage boys are watching each of all the other types/categories of porn

according to psychologists, when teenage boys watch mysogonistic types of porn, it fucks up their ability to treat females as equal to males

 

[SentinelSlain]

A Europe that hates itself and is bent on it's own destruction is not a Europe ruled by the righteous.

 

[damnromulans]

I wouldn't say that is the answer to rape, no.

However if you do some research you will see that rape incidents aren't nearly as high as the one in every four figure that feminist heads push on people. Go ahead and look at the questions and study groups used in that particular research.

You will also find, if you do some research on sexual assault, that there is an alarming amount of cases with women forcing men into sex, at least far more than the majority of people would assume. The only thing is, these cases aren't classified as rape, because in the legal definition the victim has to be penetrated in some manner, therefore making men impossible to rape unless a female chooses to go at his asshole.

As far as being out, I never see men shout at women around here whilst going about their business in public. In bars I have never put my hands on a woman that I wasn't currently in a relationship with, however I have had women I didn't know grab my ass and try to rub my junk under the counter.

But you see, that's the thing. Rape should have NOTHING to do with the feminist movement. It is something that affects us all. It's quite impossible to achieve equal rights when you're only looking at one side of the spectrum's problems.

Do you want me to fucking congratulate you for behaving the way you should and then assuming since you haven't personally witnessed it, it must be exaggerated or fabricated? Why such a butthurt knee-jerk reaction? Why would you feel threatened by women you are not raping being raped or sexually assaulted? I want you to consider why you react so defensively.

Sexual assault does not require penetration and is classified as anything from groping to forced oral sex. I believe the 1 in 4 statistic includes sexual assault. I would say maybe a quarter to a third of the women I know have been sexually assaulted, and fewer raped.

The ONLY answer to rape is "stop raping people." Otherwise you are really no different to the Taliban or Saudi Arabians.

 

[Dak]

I don't see how rape is somehow magically different from any other crime. While rape/murder/theft are all wrong, there are steps one can take to increase or decrease their chances of being a victim. There's nothing "Talibanish" about pointing that out.

If I leave my car running and unlocked in certain parts of towns I am increasing my chances of being the victim of a car theft. If I, as a female, were to walk alone, particularly in revealing clothing in that same part of town, I am most likely increasing my chances of being a victim of sexual assault. It is absurd to claim otherwise, regardless of how "wrong" the crime is.

 

[SentinelSlain]

It could even cause earthquakes

 

[PhlegethonVeins]

Do you want me to fucking congratulate you for behaving the way you should and then assuming since you haven't personally witnessed it, it must be exaggerated or fabricated? Why such a butthurt knee-jerk reaction? Why would you feel threatened by women you are not raping being raped or sexually assaulted? I want you to consider why you react so defensively.

Sexual assault does not require penetration and is classified as anything from groping to forced oral sex. I believe the 1 in 4 statistic includes sexual assault. I would say maybe a quarter to a third of the women I know have been sexually assaulted, and fewer raped.

The ONLY answer to rape is "stop raping people." Otherwise you are really no different to the Taliban or Saudi Arabians.

Defensive? Aside from what you just pointed out,( which aI've already said early was merely personal observation, not all encompassing) everything I've stated is things people can easily be skeptical of. You're the one responding in an abrasive manner.

Sexual assault does not require penetration and is classified as anything from groping to forced oral sex. Yes, but rape does require penetration, and penis in mouth rape is covered by that.

The one in four includes attempted rape, having sex under the influence and regretting it, and was of an abnormally small, VOLUNTARY test group. Of the people deemed to have been victims of rape in the case, less than 20% actually felt as though they had been a victim of rape.

" The ONLY answer to rape is "stop raping people." Otherwise you are really no different to the Taliban or Saudi Arabians."

Hey rapist, stop raping. "okay!"

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

Yes, it is possible for a woman to increase her chances of being raped just as it is possible for anyone to enhance their chances of being robbed. The difference is, if I walk around in a bad Detroit neighborhood at 2 AM wearing a brand new pair of Air Jordans, talking on my iPhone 5, and counting my stack of crisp new $100 bills and I get robbed, I stand a reasonable chance of prosecuting the offenders (especially if they're black and I have witnesses). However, if I'm a woman in the same neighborhood at the same time, wearing a micro-mini skirt without underwear and a sheer top where my tits are sticking out and I get raped, I'm probably SOL. In our culture, only the most heinous sexual assault seems to count as rape. It's really outrageous that women are supposed to shrug off cat calls, groping, and being taken advantage of whilst being intoxicated as no big deal.

None of this changes the fact that there are so-called "feminists" who sensationalize things and cause more harm than good.

tl;dr, I think you're all wrong and I win.

 

[Dak]

BTW, anyone who says "espousing equality = feminism" is either retarded, or feminists picked a really bad label. The very title itself focuses on "the feminine" exclusively.

I concur with Jimmy on the whole Individualism vs Feminism thing.

As far as liklihood of finding/prosecuting someone for the crime, that may or may not be the case. In general, petty theft gets the laugh off "Lebowski" treatment from law enforcement.

 

[skeptik]

The term feminism is used because it's the female gender attempting to raise itself to the point of equality. Just like every other marginalized and disenfranchised group attempting to raise itself up. Feminism, at least true feminism faithful to its original tenets, does not desire to achieve gender superiority, but simply equality, so yes, feminism does = espousing equality.

 

[Dak]

The term feminism is used because it's the female gender attempting to raise itself to the point of equality. Just like every other marginalized and disenfranchised group attempting to raise itself up. Feminism, at least true feminism faithful to its original tenets, does not desire to achieve gender superiority, but simply equality, so yes, feminism does = espousing equality.

No. Feminism focuses specifically on "women's" issues, and I'm excluding any sort of militant/fringe/extreme character previously mentioned. You can't focus on one subgroup of women's interpretations of social issues within larger subgroups, and claim you are only concerned about an overarching "equality". When focused on a single issue, like women's suffrage (long taken care of), the claim could possibly be made. Not now.

Anyway, only individualism recognizes each individual irrespective of gender, or any other special interest label, which inevitably promotes the issues of the respective subgroup against or at the expense of others.

 

[skeptik]

No. Feminism focuses specifically on "women's" issues

I stopped reading after this because it's so fundamentally wrong that you can't possibly have a working understanding of the subject worth reading. No offense. Part of the feminist ideal is to liberate the male as well.

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

But achieving equal footing in a society that has been male dominated for about 4000 years (i.e. western civilization) is a woman's issue. Of course many barriers have been broken, but equality isn't quite there yet. Of course, this could be construed as a utopian goal, which by its virtue of being utopian would be unachievable, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[King Richard]

What a horrible topic to discuss. Can we just move on?