MaNoWaR - what, where, why, how?

[En Vind Av Sorg]

Actually your thinking more along the lines of the 4th-6th albums, there wasnt much on eagles or flying high in the first three.

 

[Demonspell]

<<I don't get the issue with loin cloths either, or the dungeons and dragons image. I don't own any Manowar, and have never played D&D, but what do people think they're doing when they're watching LotR or Conan the Barbarian? Or any fantasy / sci-fi? It's escapism, right? So why is it that Bathory can get away with it, but not Manowar?>>

There is some truth in that statement, but I still think it's wrong to put LOTR and the likes of Conan in the same sentence...the former is literature, the latter are mere entertainment. There's more substance and relevance in Tolkien's creations, which is where Manowar comes in. Their primary function is escapism, no question, but that's all they really offer, and having a ridiculous image only becomes a problem when it overwhelms the music, which few would argue they're guilty of. This is where Bathory comes in...his Viking era albums are considerably more artistic than Manowar's juvenilia.

 

[Papa Josh]

<<I don't get the issue with loin cloths either, or the dungeons and dragons image. I don't own any Manowar, and have never played D&D, but what do people think they're doing when they're watching LotR or Conan the Barbarian? Or any fantasy / sci-fi? It's escapism, right? So why is it that Bathory can get away with it, but not Manowar?>>

There is some truth in that statement, but I still think it's wrong to put LOTR and the likes of Conan in the same sentence...the former is literature, the latter are mere entertainment. There's more substance and relevance in Tolkien's creations, which is where Manowar comes in. Their primary function is escapism, no question, but that's all they really offer, and having a ridiculous image only becomes a problem when it overwhelms the music, which few would argue they're guilty of. This is where Bathory comes in...his Viking era albums are considerably more artistic than Manowar's juvenilia.

I own those "Viking" era albums, how is that moaning like a dying dog and strumming the same chords with virtually the same "drum machine" sounding beats throughout is considered artistic? Yet something as over the top as the mighty 28 minute epic Achilles, Agony and Ecstasy in Eight Parts is considered juvenile? These are comments made by people who I don't think can honestly say they've really listened to Manowar through and through.

What we're seeing here is what the hip-hop community sees on a daily basis, the worst sides of humanity. Pre-conceived notions, false statements and the like.

Stop hatin' already. Manowar inspired Bathory, Bathory inspired __________ and so on and so on, the cycle will continue. The fact that Manowar still plays to sold out stadiums, releases successful albums and has the bond that they do with their fans just goes to show they are the real deal. They've stayed true to themselves.

 

[Papa Josh]

Papa Josh: DO you seriously think you are metal and do you seriously think you can say such things without pissing me off?

I could give a shit if I piss you off, what are you gonna do, send me a Nasheim tape to review?? I'm still waiting....

And to answer your question, I've been metal longer than you've been living.

 

[lurch70]

I can understand the Manowar fan ... like JK said .. it is pure escapism.
Had friends in school that were real thrashers, death metal freaks that would deem everyhting else as poser shit ... but they loved their Manowar. It is something that hits home with some people.

Erik ... just like the lyrics to Lethal songs are no works of brilliance (ducks for cover) .. they fit the music and pissed off attitude. Same with Manowar.

All this being said .. I hate fucking Manowar ... but I kinda get their appeal.

Music is really lacking entertainment nowadays. Especially metal. Every band is taking themselves a little too seriously and writing about gloomy, heavy topics.

 

[ProgMetalFan]

If someone enjoys Manowar... whatever... they can listen to whatever they want.

but the thing I take issue with is that Manowar and their fanbase refer to them as "Kings of Metal" and whatnot... when their music is hardly metal... it's more akin to 80's hair metal (like say Kiss - "Crazy Nights") than any real metal. It takes more than 3 minute bass solos, a screeching vocalist and lyrics about trueness and hammers to be metal.

 

[JayKeeley]

There is some truth in that statement, but I still think it's wrong to put LOTR and the likes of Conan in the same sentence...the former is literature, the latter are mere entertainment.

Hmm, just to be precise here, both LotR and Conan are literature. Indeed, Conan is considered classic fantasy literature, just as LotR is, and the author, Robert E Howard is a well regarded writer: http://www.rehoward.com/index2.htm

 

[IOfTheStorm]

their music is hardly metal... it's more akin to 80's hair metal (like say Kiss - "Crazy Nights") than any real metal.

You never listened to Manowar. Or you just listened to some songs from "Louder Than Hell" or "Metal Warriors". Songs like "Blood Of My Enemies", "Bridge Of Death" or "Thor" define heavy metal. Not to say that when Manowar said "death to false metal" back then, it was a refferance to hair "metal" (as i said in another post)
And ...
[manowar fanboy mode] Manowar are more metal than evergrey and opeth, in any aspect (especially FEELING)[/manowar fanboy mode]

 

[Papa Josh]

If someone enjoys Manowar... whatever... they can listen to whatever they want.

but the thing I take issue with is that Manowar and their fanbase refer to them as "Kings of Metal" and whatnot... when their music is hardly metal... it's more akin to 80's hair metal (like say Kiss - "Crazy Nights") than any real metal. It takes more than 3 minute bass solos, a screeching vocalist and lyrics about trueness and hammers to be metal.

Indeed it does, but again, you generalize to the point of ridiculousness because you obviously haven't delved that deep into their material, and I'm talking the total fucking package, all the way down to the artwork of their later material. You need to watch them perform "The Power" on their dvd.

Manowar is the pure, untampered, unaltered essence of metal in its purest, most primal form. They are showmen, pure and simple, and someone said it best earlier, metal should be about an escape. I don't need to listen to some fuckwad sing about how crappy the world is, I can open my eyes and look around to see and hear that for free.

 

[Black Winter Day]

Bitch, I'm more metal than you.

That may be, but my hair's longer.

 

[Papa Josh]

That may be, but my hair's longer.

Which hair are we talking about?

 

[Black Winter Day]

Heh... Have you ever wondered why pubic hair just gets a certain length and stops growing?

(Note: I'm only speaking for myself here.)

 

[lurch70]

They are showmen, pure and simple, and someone said it best earlier, metal should be about an escape. I don't need to listen to some fuckwad sing about how crappy the world is, I can open my eyes and look around to see and hear that for free.

Yes, I think this is sadly lacking in all types of music today. Today's artists are the common man, "the same as the fans", the approachable band member.

There are no true showmen left. No pure escapism, or true entertainers.

There is a reason Kiss, Manowar, Marilyn Manson, etc. etc ... are huge. Kids need to look up to someone. Not literally .. but to worship someone larger than life.

 

[SonOfNun]

Yes, I think this is sadly lacking in all types of music today. Today's artists are the common man, "the same as the fans", the approachable band member.

I haven't heard Manowar so I won't get into the discussion on them, but to comment on this bit. I think it's a good thing. I met Mikael Akerfeldt walking down the street in Denver and had a nice chat. I think it's incredible to be able to meet all of your musical idols and just talk to them like friends. No big ego to deal with, they're simply guys like us who love music.

I also think the whole "this band is more metal than that band" thing is hilarious. Metal means something different to one person than it may the next. I don't listen to metal because I need to escape from my life, I listen to metal because it's good music and I'm sure everyone here has a different definition of what metal is and what it means to them. That makes the entire arguement laughable, at least to me. Carry on.

 

[J.]

I haven't heard Manowar so I won't get into the discussion on them, but to comment on this bit. I think it's a good thing. I met Mikael Akerfeldt walking down the street in Denver and had a nice chat. I think it's incredible to be able to meet all of your musical idols and just talk to them like friends. No big ego to deal with, they're simply guys like us who love music.

I like this as well. I like the "metal is made by fans of metal" thing. I don't want a rock star. I don't want an idol or a role model. I'm not looking for a larger-than-life superstar. However, if good music just happens to be made by a group of guys performing to 20,000 fans or a couple of dimps fooling around in their garage, so be it. I just want good music, that's all.

I also think the whole "this band is more metal than that band" thing is hilarious. Metal means something different to one person than it may the next. I don't listen to metal because I need to escape from my life, I listen to metal because it's good music and I'm sure everyone here has a different definition of what metal is and what it means to them. That makes the entire arguement laughable, at least to me. Carry on.

This is also true. Which is why I laugh when someone says "I'm more metal than you", or "I've been into metal longer than you" or "Metal has to be in your blood". It makes for good entertainment. "Metal" is something different to everyone.

Paul Kuhr from Novembers Doom makes some great comments about this in this thread: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152502

EDIT: For the record, I'm not criticizing anybody. This is just the way I perceive it.

 

[SonOfNun]

I just want good music, that's all.

Exactly.

Paul Kuhr from Novembers Doom makes some great comments about this in this thread: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152502

Speaking of November's Doom, how is their music? I also read that thread and it got me interested in the band. Dark Symphonies has a three pack thingy, so is it something I might like? Never heard anything from them.

 

[ProgMetalFan]

Manowar's song "Fighting the World" sounds like a throwaway from the Kiss - "Crazy Nights" album (which coincidentally came out the same year 1987).

Also, Manowar's cover art for "Fighting the World" looks suspiciously similar to the Kiss - "Destroyer" cover art.

 

[JayKeeley]

Just speculating here, but saying you're 'more metal' than someone else in the context of this thread relates to two things here: (1) Manowar claim the title of being the "Kings of Metal" (hahaha), and (2) it was Papa Josh's retort to BWD suggesting his credibilty had gone because he likes Manowar more than Bathory. Nothing more, nothing less. It's really not worth blowing out of proportion.

Although, I must say J, it is interesting to see you saying that metal just "makes for good entertainment". Aren't you so vehemently opposed to the idea of "the music is all that matters"? In other words, 'if the music is good, then that's good enough' is a concept you strongly disagree with, right?

I think lurch70 is talking about the demise of stadium bands. Bands like Opeth are *probably* not going to headline Wacken. Likewise, Hate Forest are not going to carry things forward into the next decade, particulary for others to follow. etc etc.

Now, as much as I love Maiden, Slayer, etc. even I would like to see SOMEONE / ANYONE take over and headline the festivals or bring forth the stadium tours. Shit, I love seeing bands like Agalloch in a small underground (literally) bar in front of 200 people, and then talking with the band after the show, etc. But for the love of all that is sacred, metal cannot lose its festivals and stadium tours!!!!!! This is where the fans congregate outside of the stupid internet, and look at who's headlining Wacken in 2004? Saxon, Motorhead, Dio, and Anthrax. Puh-lease.

To be honest, the demise of metal (in it's pure headlining festival form) is something that I find quite daunting, since bands like Maiden and Slayer aren't going to be touring forever.

Manowar? I have no understanding of what the fans see in this band, and I don't think it can be truly explained. It's probably one of those things where if you need to ask, then you'll never know.

 

[J.]

Although, I must say J, it is interesting to see you saying that metal just "makes for good entertainment". Aren't you so vehemently opposed to the idea of "the music is all that matters"? In other words, 'if the music is good, then that's good enough' is a concept you strongly disagree with, right?

You misunderstood me. When I said "It makes for good entertainment", I was talking about the people arguing over who is "more metal" and that "metal must be in your blood" and such. I should of been more clear.

 

[SonOfNun]

To be honest, the demise of metal (in it's pure headlining festival form) is something that I find quite daunting, since bands like Maiden and Slayer aren't going to be touring forever.

Just guessing, but maybe it's something most fans/bands just don't care about anymore. I've personally never been to a stadium show or any large metal concert of more than 200 people, but to be honest I find the smaller shows bring you so much closer to the band and your ability to enjoy the music and atmosphere probably increases when your, at any given place, standing 3 feet from the band and get to talk to them before and after the show. Maybe most bands have no interest in headlining festivals and playing to thousands as I think anymore, most bands concentrate more solely on their music and what it means to them, than what the public will perceive it as and even whether it is viable to play it live. Having been to large shows for other genres of music and getting a very disconnected feeling, I'm not all that excited at the mention of Opeth headlining a huge festival and not being able to have that perfect atmosphere. Maybe because I haven't experienced Wacken and the like is why I'm biased, but maybe it's the fact that I don't feel the need to be around a few thousand drunks in the mid-day heat to see my favorite band.

Anyway, I'm not trying too much to take a stance on the matter, but rather to show that maybe what the music means to the bands and the audience they want to hear it has changed over the years, making these huge shows and congregations of people uneeded.