Melodic Death Metal Vs. Death Metal

[LucioArgento]

The only reason why we even know that Cannibal Coprse are 'disgusting' is because they print their lyrics. (OK so they project a band 'image' and the album titles are self evident, but for lyrical content you're forced to read them to understand what they're going on about).

Same applies to black metal vocals - if you don't have the lyrics in front of you, then you have no idea of what's going on except for the barrage of noise coming through your speakers. (And I don't mean that in a derogatory manner).

Can anyone say that emotion would be drawn from the lyrics if indeed they can't be understood? Or is the vocal style simply an interpretation of emotion that accompanies the music?

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by phyre
Death metal does have emotion. Its emotion is aggression. If you'd rather listen to depressing or uplifting metal, then fine, but death metal is emotional music. All real metal is highly emotional. Nevermind that you picked one of the worst death metal bands available for all your discussions... Cannibal Corpse might be a lot about shock value but if you are going to criticize Cannibal Corpse, say "Cannibal Corpse" and not "death metal in general". That will upset a lot of people as most death metal bands do not at all fit with the points you are making.

Yet I didn't say death metal in general.. I said death/grindcore or cannibal corpse specifically. That is what you seem to be defending.

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by xenophobe
Well, just because you don't get it or don't like it, you don't need to stir up the group of people who do just to get them upset.

I don't understand the motive behind that. I could understand IF you were inquiring WHY, but the fact you come here, make insulting generalizations about music I enjoy is something beyond my comprension if it isn't just to act like your laughable final opinion is rule of law or something.

I'm sure my explantions of whatever music YOU might be into, of which I am not, would probably be nearly as narrowminded as your comments.

Are Death Metal lyrics stupid? For the most part, yes.

On the flip side, are any lyrics of any song by Pink Floyd, Van Halen, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, Peter Gabriel, Elvis Presley or any OTHER musical product any "better"?

So, before you decide that some other band has stupid lyrics, listen to the music that you enjoy and see just how much 'sense' they make.

This seems to be a series of misunderstandings. First of all, as I pointed out to Phyre, the angry man that he is, I wasn't speaking of death metal in general. I listen to some death metal and melodic death metal myself. I was speaking of the bands that are specifically out there for shock value like cannibal corpse. Yes, they print their lyrics because people will buy the albums so they can revel in them. I never said anything about them making sense other then the fact that CC is totally incomprehensible. Any combination of words put together makes more sense then gibberish.

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by phyre
Death metal does have emotion. Its emotion is aggression. If you'd rather listen to depressing or uplifting metal, then fine, but death metal is emotional music. All real metal is highly emotional. Nevermind that you picked one of the worst death metal bands available for all your discussions... Cannibal Corpse might be a lot about shock value but if you are going to criticize Cannibal Corpse, say "Cannibal Corpse" and not "death metal in general". That will upset a lot of people as most death metal bands do not at all fit with the points you are making.

As I did.

 

[Nate The Great]

JesterRace: Did you realize there are probably hundreds of gore-metal groups out there. CC is not the only one. That means that there must be a big market for this stuff. In fact, the great Phil Anselmo has been working in arguably the very first gore-metal group (Necrophagia). Gore-metal is the equivalent of gore movies. What's the big deal if people enjoy that stuff? It doesn't make it any less of a ligitimate sub-genre. Have you ever heard the term "catharsis"? Look it up. There have been scientific studies done showing that "gore" in movies and music is a great form of catharsis. You show a complete lack of respect for a legitimate art form when you put down bands like CC for what their lyrics say. Also . . . in your original post on this thread, you put down a lot more than just gore-metal. Don't contradict yourself. Stick to your guns. Don't give in to all the replies that seem to despise you.

 

[Static]

Everyone just cool down and listen to whatever you want.
Personally I think all out brutal death metal is complete bollocks, and agree with Jesterrace to an extent. CC is crap, Mortician is crap but others like Morbid Angel and At the Gates have redeeming qualities. I like middle-range death metal (if that makes sense), metal thats not to soft but not too heavy. I agree that "wall of noise" metal is pointless to listen to.

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by Static
Everyone just cool down and listen to whatever you want.
Personally I think all out brutal death metal is complete bollocks, and agree with Jesterrace to an extent. CC is crap, Mortician is crap but others like Morbid Angel and At the Gates have redeeming qualities. I like middle-range death metal (if that makes sense), metal thats not to soft but not too heavy. I agree that "wall of noise" metal is pointless to listen to.

This is what I've been trying to get people to understand. I'm making fun of the gore/grindcore whatever you want to call it in itself, not the people for liking it. To each his own, but when Phyre responded to me regarding the "wall of noise" death/grind bands, he said that people can see the beauty beneath or something to that effect. I found that relatively insane. Enjoying it is one thing but seeing the beauty beneath? Come on

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by npearce
JesterRace: Did you realize there are probably hundreds of gore-metal groups out there. CC is not the only one. That means that there must be a big market for this stuff. In fact, the great Phil Anselmo has been working in arguably the very first gore-metal group (Necrophagia). Gore-metal is the equivalent of gore movies. What's the big deal if people enjoy that stuff? It doesn't make it any less of a ligitimate sub-genre. Have you ever heard the term "catharsis"? Look it up. There have been scientific studies done showing that "gore" in movies and music is a great form of catharsis. You show a complete lack of respect for a legitimate art form when you put down bands like CC for what their lyrics say. Also . . . in your original post on this thread, you put down a lot more than just gore-metal. Don't contradict yourself. Stick to your guns. Don't give in to all the replies that seem to despise you.

I guess I didn't realize that it was considered an art form outside of the movies. It still is a legitimate sub-genre, i didn't say it wasn't, it just necessarily isn't worth listening to in my opinion What's the problem with music where we have to start coming up with new sub-genres everyday that get increasingly strange with each one. To me, music is a lot of things, but not an art form. When I think of art form in music, I think of noise bands and the founders of extreme industrial noise/whatever you wish to call it, with bands like Throbbing Gristle. I know of one song where someone blows three notes on a bullhorn over and over while he reads the vivid description of a burn victim in grave detail. That's also an art form

 

[JesterRace]

Side note - Sorry about the poll, I didn't realize you couldn't configure it to allow multiple choices.. I can't pick just one of the limited genres included either.

 

[Nocturnal Emperor]

i prefer melodic death but not all death metal is noise cryptopsy and decapitated are very technical.

 

[Opus(sy)2]

I love death metal in any form apart from one.....mortician...these guys im afraid just cannot be classed as musicians......there music just sounds like complete shit. i am 16, i have played guitar for 9 years and im love with death metal....but seriously...mortician must have originally set out to be some kind of pisstake band because they are truelly a complete load of shit. the guitars just sound like bollocks....i mean for fucks sake....how crap can it get....and also the tuning is sooooo fucking low their stings must like sag to their fucking ankles. the vocals sound like complete SHIT!...and the drumming is apaulling........no skill whatsoever. i think great death metal bands are cryptopsy, deicide, in flames, gardenian, converge, their stuff is complex with great structure....and i think my fave at the moment is decapitated...these guys started at 14 years old and they are now about 20 and their music is technically flawless. sorry if i have upset some people with my mortician comments....but for christs sake....buy some albums by some proper bands that set out to make good music and not just some pile of complete disorganised shit!

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by leper iffinity
I love death metal in any form apart from one.....mortician...these guys im afraid just cannot be classed as musicians......there music just sounds like complete shit. i am 16, i have played guitar for 9 years and im love with death metal....but seriously...mortician must have originally set out to be some kind of pisstake band because they are truelly a complete load of shit. the guitars just sound like bollocks....i mean for fucks sake....how crap can it get....and also the tuning is sooooo fucking low their stings must like sag to their fucking ankles. the vocals sound like complete SHIT!...and the drumming is apaulling........no skill whatsoever. i think great death metal bands are cryptopsy, deicide, in flames, gardenian, converge, their stuff is complex with great structure....and i think my fave at the moment is decapitated...these guys started at 14 years old and they are now about 20 and their music is technically flawless. sorry if i have upset some people with my mortician comments....but for christs sake....buy some albums by some proper bands that set out to make good music and not just some pile of complete disorganised shit!

I couldn't agree more, this is why I basically started this thread. By death metal I guess I really meant certain sub genres like grindcore, which is what mortician belongs to without a doubt. I may not like some of the brutally heavy death metal stuff like cryptopsy but I respect the fact that they are out to make music that sounds good to them and not just tuning as low as humanly possible with a drum machine playing an inhumanly fast blast beat. Someone proved my point earlier in this thread when they spoke of grindcore bands as "art", which is what they could be construed as, as they aren't out to make good music as much as they are trying to construct horror movie plots and/or music for total shock value. There's even a subgenre of music called "noise" that's particularly popular in Japan, I don't know how many people are aware of it. The creators won't tell you that its music, they'll tell you that its an art form. They rarely even use musical instruments, they'll use various types of machinery and put it through filters to create strange, sometimes frightening noises. So the only difference I can see between "noise" and "grindcore" would be the prescense of vocals, as incoherent and ridiculous as they may be, and actual musical instruments to make the same wall of noise. People will still get upset about your post and especially mine, no matter how intelligent it may be. Basically because there's gotta be people who listen to this shit, otherwise these bands would never get record deals. Which is pretty sad, considering people in the US (where I live) are more likely to know of cheesy death/grind than real skillful death metal such as In Flames, etc.

 

[Opus(sy)2]

i couldnt agree with you more jester race....although you class mortician as grindcore....i just class them as complete bullshit with no musicality. good grindcore bands are bands like cannibal corpse where there is some good technical ability but bands like mortician just cross the line.

thanks for hearing me out

 

[Nate The Great]

You guys obviously haven't heard grindcore like Nasum or Cephalic Carnage. It may be fast, but it is definetly not noise. These bands are out to do new things. I'm not a big grindcore fan, but when you say grindcore is nothing but noise, you are being very ignorant.

 

[Nate The Great]

Originally posted by leper iffinity
i couldnt agree with you more jester race....although you class mortician as grindcore....i just class them as complete bullshit with no musicality. good grindcore bands are bands like cannibal corpse where there is some good technical ability but bands like mortician just cross the line.

thanks for hearing me out

You've just proven that you don't even know what grindcore is. Cannibal Corpse is death metal, or more particularly gore metal. Not grindcore. There is a difference.

 

[Opus(sy)2]

ok........no.1 cannibal corpse are classed as grindcore and death metal...this classing thing is seriously pissing me off. have i even said that grindcore is nothing but noise?.....sorry if i have offended you....but bands like mortician, cannibal corpse are fucking noise...MUSIC IS NOISE but some is melodic noise....and other music is just fucking shit noise (mortician etc)........i like cannibal corpse...i think they do some pretty cool heavy technical stuff but you surely must see my point about mortician....they are a pile of fucking shit....and people who cant see this really have no ear for good music. people may call me inexperienced as i am only 16 but i have played guitar now for 9 years....im in 2 bands which are currently writing technical melodic death metal....i have just completed music gcse...im going onto do music a level and then im going to get a music degree.....so i do know what im talking about and i know the sorts of things to listen out for in music. when i listen to mortician....all i get is this pathetic 3chorded repeated riff throughout the song......some pathetic drum machine blasting out some load of bollocks constantly throughout the 'so called' song. the vocals are just appauling......just some bloke randomly belching in the mic....i mean wow.....can you imagine all the thought that goes into writing their music!!!....all of like none! bands like mortician dont deserve to be where they are today and record companys should sign up some fresh talented bands that write music and not bullshit like mortician etc..

 

[Nate The Great]

Please try listening to real grindcore like Nasum and Cephalic Carnage. Mortician and Cannibal Corpse have a much more death metal sound. If you heard the bands I mentioned, you would understand.

I think it's cool you are getting a music degree, but remember that technical ability isn't the only way to judge music. I too have played guitar for a long time. I knew tons of scales, modes, etc., but eventually I just learned to play what my ear told me sounded good. I don't like bands with extremely basic guitar, so I hear where you're coming from.

By the way, I'm glad you like Converge. You might like to check out Watchmaker. I've been really digging those guys lately. You can check out my review of them hear at the UM "review" forum.

 

[Opus(sy)2]

yeah cool...im not starting an argument...im just putting my views across....i will check out those bands you mentioned and i totally see where your coming from with technical ability etc....but yeah converge do rock!! ...but you do see my point about mortician dont you?

 

[Noctem]

Bullshit you got good music and you got bad music...thats it

 

[Kozmos]

I think that having to decide whether or not it's a good thing to categorise or not is in itself as bad as strict categorisation. It's useful to both use categories as descriptive vocabulary and to see beyond them.

Whenever I try and discuss things like this I find myself being quite hypocritical. I think that the use of categories in music is useful - like with so many things in life. However, when it comes down to the music I write myself I find it silly to try and put it in Black or Death or whatever - simply because it doesn't add any value to do so.

For me the issue is this (and this is probably much deeper than i have time to go into): it's a matter of distinguishing between Style and Content but understanding that both are interrelated. I think the major problem comes about because the vast majority of metal has very little content and the vast majority of categories that have been invented to describe metal are almost entirely related to style.

It's not so much like this if you look at, for instance, choosing whether or not to place a piece of music in either the Classical or Baroque category. Such categorisation has a lot more to do with the actual content: the formation of melodic lines, the progressions used, how much real polyphony is used, etc. etc. Style also has a lot to do with it too, of course. As i said Style and Content are also interdependent to some degree, which adds confusion to the issue.

At the end of the day, I think there are people out there creating metal because they want it to be true to a particular style (and there's nothing wrong with that) and people out there creating metal more driven by the content and the style end up being a mish-mash of Death, Black Doom, whatever (and there's nothing wrong with that either). The fans who get frustrated are those who feel they have to squeeze everything into a category. Sometimes it's best to just listen and enjoy