Melodic Death Metal Vs. Death Metal

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by Kozmos
I think that having to decide whether or not it's a good thing to categorise or not is in itself as bad as strict categorisation. It's useful to both use categories as descriptive vocabulary and to see beyond them.

Whenever I try and discuss things like this I find myself being quite hypocritical. I think that the use of categories in music is useful - like with so many things in life. However, when it comes down to the music I write myself I find it silly to try and put it in Black or Death or whatever - simply because it doesn't add any value to do so.

For me the issue is this (and this is probably much deeper than i have time to go into): it's a matter of distinguishing between Style and Content but understanding that both are interrelated. I think the major problem comes about because the vast majority of metal has very little content and the vast majority of categories that have been invented to describe metal are almost entirely related to style.

It's not so much like this if you look at, for instance, choosing whether or not to place a piece of music in either the Classical or Baroque category. Such categorisation has a lot more to do with the actual content: the formation of melodic lines, the progressions used, how much real polyphony is used, etc. etc. Style also has a lot to do with it too, of course. As i said Style and Content are also interdependent to some degree, which adds confusion to the issue.

At the end of the day, I think there are people out there creating metal because they want it to be true to a particular style (and there's nothing wrong with that) and people out there creating metal more driven by the content and the style end up being a mish-mash of Death, Black Doom, whatever (and there's nothing wrong with that either). The fans who get frustrated are those who feel they have to squeeze everything into a category. Sometimes it's best to just listen and enjoy

Yeah, categorization is supposed to be good for giving people a good idea of what the music is going to sound like before they buy it, but unfortunately, there's no real way to do this. Where I live in upstate NY where people are for the most part close minded about metal around the globe, lump everything that has harsher vocals into one big "death metal" category. Like my fav. metal band, In Flames. The music is some of the most technically-proficient, beautiful melodic shit I've ever heard while still maintaining that heaviness that makes it metal. Can we really group it in with other "melodic death metal" bands that may have totally different influences/styles that sound totally different from one another? In the US its just simply socially unacceptable
Imagine someone hearing a song off of one of carcass's two newer albums where they adoped a more progressive-metal style as opposed to their grindcoreish/medical terminology roots.
Theres a 100% difference in style between one of these earlier albums and what I'd consider to be their swansong, ironically the album is called Swansong That person hears "rock the vote" or something similiar, then likes it so much they buy "symphonies of sickness" and they are completely shocked.

With the adoption of more listening stations, where you can scan the barcode of a CD and listen to it, you can find out more, but few places have this yet. My way of finding new music was basically talking to people on the WWW and checking out songs off of Audiogalaxy, a P2p sharing program for those who don't know. If I liked the song, then I'd special order the CD or buy it from Amazon.com or something. It really pisses me off that audiogalaxy is yet another place shut down due to the fucking greedy record companies. Audiogalaxy was my outlet for finding metal music abroad that I like, as opposed to the mainstream bullshit I hear everyday and see in the record stores. No, I'm not interested in the new Godsmack cd, where I can hear him hit a mean dropped-D power chord repeatedly. Most people in the US have NO clue. I'd really like to see what people who claim themselves to be "metalheads" think when they hear the amazing symphonic arrangements in children of bodom songs, or something of the sort. They haven't heard anything yet Eh, sorry this is kinda random ranting.. the first part was in response to a previous post anyways

 

[apoplexy]

well, we all heard what we want at a specialy moment, for ex: i heard brutal death metal when i think i was shy to do something or melodic death metal when i want to fell very strong. no way, we just listen metal that's all. it's our ear choise to.

 

[GuardianInFlames]

One of the greatest albums.Emperor-Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk? YEAH RIGHT! That was the first Black Metal album I have ever purchased And I have only listened to it once.Its just a big glob of noise and you cant even hear Ihsahn's vocals at all(Which is sort of a good thing!) Yes Melodic Death Metal is my favor.I cant stand too much Death Metal besides the kings of Death Metal,obviously Death.I enjoy Dismember,At the Gates,Arch Enemy,Buried Dreams,Darkened Skies and a bunch of others! and Opeth Melodic Death Metal? no way! I agree with Jester with a lot of his sayings including a lot of Death Metal have horrible strong structures.....like Vader or Cryptopsy or Incantation....One reason I love Metal is for the outstanding guitar work...Maybe thats why i despise those bands.Place Laiho in Cryptopsy and then maybe I would listen to them.

 

[Ibsen]

Before I begin, I would like to also apologize on behalf of America. I don't remember who wrote this first but I would like to say that was a very noble comment. To the person who objected, I have something to say to you. The reason why Americans create such horrible music is because the music industry cares about nothing more than money (a big "burn in hell" to anyone who assists in making the phrase "real musicians starve" a harsh reality). It is true that there are some good American bands. But, if you stop to listen to their music, you will notice that they have strong European influences. Aside from this, American bands do not suck simply because they are from the United States. The American population is fed daily doses of submission, conformity, and most of all, artistic ignorance. It just so happens that not ALL Americans are fools. I like to think of these "enlightened" Americans as having a European attitude.

I don't remember who made a comment about bands not being good because they do not stick to the traditional verse, chorus, whatever-the-hell repetition. Think about what you just said and realize you are a complete fool for saying this. Do you realize that a progressive song that someone has spent a really long time to write is much more cahllenging than writing 2 goddamn riffs and repeating them over and over?!

As for Death vs. Melodic Death, I would like to point out the amount of musicianship invloved. Being a musician myself, I will tell you right now that it is much harder to create something of quality with melodicism, harmonies, counterpointing, etc. that some people have had to dedicate their lives to learning than it is to bash on a stupid power chord for 2 minutes while not actually knowing the first damn thing about what it is to be a true musician! I have heard this grindcore crap once before and I think it is a total and complete abscense of musical quality and artistic ability, as well as musicianship in general. You know what seperates us metalheads from punkers and mainstream pop-punk or whatever that crap is called? The fact that we listen to music that an actual ARTIST (not some idiot who can play power chords and sell records to a hoarde of brainwashed, ignorant, stupid, idiotic Americans) wrote and spent their time to create something that can actually be considered an art! Listen, your preference is your damn preference. But the fact remains that quality must be present from the beginning. It cannot simply be added later.

 

[Opus(sy)2]

WELL SAID 'IBSEN'..............i agree with all of your points......especially the american one..........but you are a great american *applauds Ibsen*

 

[sands of the seas]

Ok i haven't read any of the replies because i can't be fucked, but i'm gonna post anyway.
I doubt i will ever get into any death metal other than melodic. I hate the bands that have virtually no melody to their songs. Having said that, i never thought i would get into the death growls, but i have since bought an opeth album and blackwater park is amongst my favourite metal songs of all times. There's a huge difference between getting used to a song with growls and getting used to a song without melody. To me, a song without that melody is just noise. Some people like it, that's fine by me, but it isn't for me.

 

[Ibsen]

Thanks leper affinity. I'm glad to see someone agrees with me. I totally agree with you sands of the seas. I actually started off listening to melodic black metal. I had heard about Opeth from a guitar magazine i used to subscribe to. I decided to check them out and I bought Orchid. I thought (and still do) it the best music I have ever heard in my life. I thought this was black metal since the only death metal I had ever heard was non-melodic crap, as well as the"pretend death metal" that is more commonly known here in America as Nu-Metal (although I just say it's death metal for posers) so i thought that all death metal was low quality music. As I got more into Opeth, I started realizing that this was actually death metal, only a higher breed of death metal than all the other crap I'd heard. The thing is that you can get used to that barking or growling or whatever it is officially called once you look past t and just listen to the music. I even asked some musicians who know quality music and they agree with me on that one. I know this is straying off the topic at hand, but I just wanted to say that as well.

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by Ibsen
Before I begin, I would like to also apologize on behalf of America. I don't remember who wrote this first but I would like to say that was a very noble comment. To the person who objected, I have something to say to you. The reason why Americans create such horrible music is because the music industry cares about nothing more than money (a big "burn in hell" to anyone who assists in making the phrase "real musicians starve" a harsh reality). It is true that there are some good American bands. But, if you stop to listen to their music, you will notice that they have strong European influences. Aside from this, American bands do not suck simply because they are from the United States. The American population is fed daily doses of submission, conformity, and most of all, artistic ignorance. It just so happens that not ALL Americans are fools. I like to think of these "enlightened" Americans as having a European attitude.

- This is one of the points I was trying to get across as well. Some people mistook my comment on the commonly used 7 string in "nu-metal" and pointless downtunings in most american metal. A strong majority of the bands I do listen to do tune down, which has nothing to do with any lack of talent, I was pointing out the american nu-metal bands attempts to sound "heavy" just by downtuning, when this is not the case. You are right, I live in the US, in NY, and the music scene around here is simply terrible. I got my choice of the mainstream nu-metal shit they play on the radio and the big local hardcore scene. And there's a reason it stays local hardcore: it's talentless attempts at songs keeps them at the local level.

I don't remember who made a comment about bands not being good because they do not stick to the traditional verse, chorus, whatever-the-hell repetition. Think about what you just said and realize you are a complete fool for saying this. Do you realize that a progressive song that someone has spent a really long time to write is much more cahllenging than writing 2 goddamn riffs and repeating them over and over?!

- I believe I made a comment about how I liked having somewhat of a traditional song structure, but I agree that it is much more challenging to write progressive style songs. What I don't like is when the music becomes a "wall of sound" with guitar parts thrown in all over the place. The traditional song structure is obviously not all that important.

As for Death vs. Melodic Death, I would like to point out the amount of musicianship invloved. Being a musician myself, I will tell you right now that it is much harder to create something of quality with melodicism, harmonies, counterpointing, etc. that some people have had to dedicate their lives to learning than it is to bash on a stupid power chord for 2 minutes while not actually knowing the first damn thing about what it is to be a true musician! I have heard this grindcore crap once before and I think it is a total and complete abscense of musical quality and artistic ability, as well as musicianship in general. You know what seperates us metalheads from punkers and mainstream pop-punk or whatever that crap is called? The fact that we listen to music that an actual ARTIST (not some idiot who can play power chords and sell records to a hoarde of brainwashed, ignorant, stupid, idiotic Americans) wrote and spent their time to create something that can actually be considered an art! Listen, your preference is your damn preference. But the fact remains that quality must be present from the beginning. It cannot simply be added later.

- I agree with this too, and I got a lot of flack for making light of the grindcore bands lack of talent. Someone earlier on in this thread called it an art in itself, supposedly around a horror movie theme. I used the band Mortician as an example of the horrid quality of music these bands put out, and the complete lack of talent and emotion they have. What cracks me up is the Cannibal Corpse thread in the artists forum, where people are trying to come up with new names for songs. Sure, the titles may be amusing, but its the ignorant people that actually spend their money on this shit that puzzles me.

 

[JesterRace]

Originally posted by sands of the seas
Ok i haven't read any of the replies because i can't be fucked, but i'm gonna post anyway.
I doubt i will ever get into any death metal other than melodic. I hate the bands that have virtually no melody to their songs. Having said that, i never thought i would get into the death growls, but i have since bought an opeth album and blackwater park is amongst my favourite metal songs of all times. There's a huge difference between getting used to a song with growls and getting used to a song without melody. To me, a song without that melody is just noise. Some people like it, that's fine by me, but it isn't for me.

I'm glad that you did post. That's basically how I got introduced to "death metal" was listening to melodic death metal bands and basically getting used to the growling vocals. Such as Blackwater Park. The music is such a trip that I don't mind the vocals at all. if you read some of the earlier posts, you'll feel better because you'll see all the shit I got for saying the exact same thing, because I dared to say that this brutal/grindcore stuff is really not easy on the ears

 

[Opus(sy)2]

shit.........i posted very early on.........on this thread and went for melodic death metal but having listened to a whole load of grindcore bands (nasum, burst and krigshot are the main ones), i am starting to like grindcore a whole lot more, it may not be the most technical music but fuck...........its very lively and fucking great to listen to. my opinion on mortician remains though

mortician = shit

 

[plfffffft]

Heh, quick sidenote, my friend Mark made a Grindcore tape in his basement with a guitar, bass and a keyboard for drums. that shit was funy as hell. Song titles included "I tried to kill myself but I sneezed when I pulled the trigger and now my nose is hanging off my face," "Kill your fucking self," "I love my BMX and I like causing car accidents," "Fuck you, Dad," and "Alyssa you scum sucking whore I want my fucking Op Ivy t-shirt back."


Ok, I think it's cool that people have their own opinions, I just think whoever's resorting to personal attacks based on a difference of opinion should be dragged out into the street and shot. It's fucking pointless. And I'm talking to both sides. Listen to what you like and let others do the same. Don't call someone a moron because they like grindcore, and don't call someone a moron because they don't like grindcore. Live and Let Live, people


"And now you know."

"And knowing is half the battle."



"I don't listen to extreme meteal all the time, and I don't suggest that anyone else do either." - Ihsahn from Emperor

 

[Opus(sy)2]

cool...........some grindcore is just complete shit but some is good (thinking of nasum, krigshot)

 

[Soultorn]

Ok... prepare for a very long response to all this controversy going on.
I happen to be in a melodic death metal band. Not to say my opinion is biased, I am in a Grindcore side project.
The first "melodic death metal" I heard was Carcass "Swansong". I had just bought the new Pearl Jam CD along with it and STP from Columbia House. I put it in, and the first thing I did was laugh. It was complete jumble of distorted noise. I couldn't understand it for the least bit... so it went directly to my CD shelf, unused.
The next week, I was bored off my ass... so I decided to give Carcass a second chance. I found myself humming the tune to "Keep On Rotting In The Free World" that day. I thought it odd.. but this music slowly started to gain it's hold upon me. So, being ignorant as to what "heavy" music was, I went out and bought Morbid Angel.
I was dissapointed.... there was something missing from the music.. and I could not tell what. Little did I know it was the melody factor.
Anyway, to make along story short, I have always been attracted to melody, that thing you can hum or whistle. Brutal death metal lacks that. But yet... the heavist bands in the death metal genre appeal to me alot. Kataklysm, Cryptopsy.. and a few others as well, blow my mind each time I listen to them.
In thus, you have a ceremony of opposites. Brutal destructive metal compared to (pop) melodic metal. There is so much head room in the death metal genre, that there are new hybrids with every blink of the eye. Some bands fall directly in between. In Thy Dreams, for example, and later Crown. Sum up thier style in 2 words.
In my opinion, melody and chaos are the cusps of metal. Technicality is APPLIED. I don't see In Flames as a very technical band, truthfully. As far as the guitars are concerned.. the word is "talented" or "showy". But then, what of Cannibal Corpse? I don't see them as technical either. The song structures are simply reconstruced, and the riffs are more chunky and brutalized.
Technicality is a band trait.
Onto lyrics and song titles...
I don't even know why this became a subject in here. that soley depends on the vocalist. Firstly... if you can't understand it... I don't think it can be deemed "emotional". Lyrics are somehting you need to relate to to feel the emotion truly. Just because lyrics are sung doesn't mean you can understand them. Soilwork, for example. Strid may sing with emotion.... but when you hear lyrics such as "We know how to spit and swallow", does that make you want to call him on the phone and say " I understand where you're coming from, man"? Not to bash, Soilwork is one of my favorite bands... but there is a line to draw.
When you hear a death metal singer talking about eviscerating someone wth a knife, you can't understand that, either (unless you have personal experience, that is). If done right, the lyrics can have impact.... but then again.... how many bands talk about the end of the universe (ahem, Kataklysm). How can you relate to that when you're angry? How many worlds have you crushed?
My point being that metal mostly has artistic value, not so much emotional value (excluding heavy metal aka, Sentenced, etc).
To put my final thoughts in... only the bands that puxh themselves musically are those that I admire in the death metal genre. Some walk lines, while others drive down deep. Some people just don't like the water.

 

[Ibsen]

You cannot say that just because you can't understand the lyrics makes them any less emotional. Listen to "In Mist She Was Standing" by Opeth. If you can make it out, pay close attention to the part where he starts with "Touching her flesh..."

If you can't seem to find it, here are the lyrics so you can follow along:

Seven milestones
Under a watching autumn eye
Contorted trees are spreading forth
The message of the wind

With Frozen hands I rode the the stars

With anger the winds blew
Giving wings to my stallion
Clouds gathered across the moon
Blazing the white light

Passing by the lake I know so well
I am near, yet so far away

Arival
i saw her shadow (standing) in the darkness
Awaiting me like the night awaits the day
Stadning silent, smiling at my presence
A black candle holds the ony light

Darkness encloses
And the candle seems to expire
In her cold, cold hand
And as a forlorn soul
It will fade away

Touching her flesh in this night
My blood froze forever
Embraced before the dawn
A kiss brought total eclipse

And she spoke
Once and forever
I am so cold
In mist enrobed the twilight
She was standing

You cannot possibly tell me that this does not hit something in you (especially the part I told you about) and you most certainly cannot say that he does not sing with emotion, even though it is hard to understand what he is saying. Also, listen to some of the songs on the Morningrise album and tell me theu have no emotional value. Good luck in that.

 

[Soultorn]

There is a fine line between emotion and feeling.

 

[DCLXVI]

jesus folks. why did anyone argue about any of this?

I dont know what is crammed down your throats where you live, but I am reasonably sure it is niether death nor melodic metal. in fact, I would go so far as to say it is probably "nu-metal", hip hop, and happy dancey top 40. where I work we are forced to listen to the radio all day, and we have little bets going all the time trying to predict the playlist. it is a game I would much rather not have to entertain myself with, but I am pretty accurate.

my point being, for any type of metal, one has to look for it, to search it out deliberately. sometimes we find a band we savor like a fine wine, and sometimes its like a gulp of shitty flat diet pepsi. the alternative is the rancid puke on the radio.
I dont know about you, but Ill take a warm can of pepsi over someone elses vomit anyday.

everyones all i hate so and so or such and such is pointless...
AND???
so what!! to the fucking MILLIONS of record buyers that drive the recording industry machine EVERYTHING you listen to is pointless. you think the typical office drone or the kid at hot topic or the guy washing dishes in the back or the car load of girls looking for someone to buy them booze on a friday night can tell the difference between Opeth and Diecide??!!!
HA!
its all shit to them, it all makes thier dumb little heads hurt, and you sniveling whiners ought to just be grateful as holy hell that anyone is even making this music.

the percentage of musicians that write and record the albums you love and cherish and actually make a living off of it is very VERY disgustingly low. this is PATHETIC. its pathetic when some assbag rapper that cant play a chord on any type of instrument can make a million over night, and its pathetic when some dipshit in a studio with half a million dollars in gear can put out a number one hit that goes triple platinum without a single actual instrument played on it.

musicians, real ones, today are struggling for little crumbs, working day jobs and getting fired everytime they have to tour, just to play what they WANT to play instead of what is required.

instead of fucking arguing and telling each other your preferred style of music is better than someone elses, like a bunch of bitchass snobs, maybe you should be out there playing, spending your cash, and supporting.

youre welcome.

 

[Ibsen]

If you read my original post DCLVXI, you will notice that I touch on many of the same aspects. I too am from L.A. and I kow that almost everyone is stupid as hell here and can't tell the difference. This point has been made already. However, remember that this is not an angry argument, it's just a simple debate. It is something to keep us busy, not something that we will go out and kill someone over.

 

[JesterRace]

DCLXVI, I can understand your anger in these matters, but like ibsen said, it wasn't meant to be an angry discussion. Some people were really immature in posting replies to some of the original posts, especially my first one, and getting all upset when someone makes a comment about how they *don't* like a certain type of music. I'd like to hang some of these US mainstream numetal posers by their scrotums on high voltage barbed wire, because there's just some things and styles in music that I just can't respect. One of the points I made earlier is how so much of the brutal death/grindcore stuff is more popular then a lot of really talented metal bands that deserve their credit times a zillion. You can walk the streets in most any big city in the US and ask people if they've heard of cannibal corpse or in flames, and a hell of a lot more are going to tell you they've heard of cannibal corpse, or even like it. In the same vein as mainstream posers, these guys are more shock value artists. People buy the albums for the gruesome unintelligible lyrics, song titles, and artwork. I find that really sad.

 

[WarHead]

Dude,..alot of people know In Flames more than Cannibal Corpse.,..,i mean they toured with Slipknot,.,.,.,a band that is into the whole shock value thing.,. even more so than CC..,.,

Death metal never gets any respect.,.,.its bullshit.,. but oh well thats how it goes.,..,and thats the price you pay for the style of music that drives you.,.,.


...and thats all i have to say about that...

 

[Opus(sy)2]

well i like death metal and melodic death metal both the same.........and i love grindcore, and other types of metal including black.....this genre thing is starting to annoy me now..........who gives a fuck what genre the band is in.........just enjoy the music!!!!!!!!!!!!