Metal and Fascist Idealism

[AjDeath]

I frequently find myself at the center of a debate over what "belongs" in metal. Most often, it comes up in the context of my defense of bands who hold socially unpopular viewpoints about race and politics. The charge usually levelled by dogmatic liberals is that fascism doesn't "belong" in metal, but the reality is quite different. Far from being inimical to metal, fascism is the inherent underlying subtext of the genre and represents both its reason to be and its logical endpoint.

Metal was born as a reaction against rock 'n roll and the reductive logic of liberalism. From its inception, the best metal consistently expressed a set of values and ideals that could best be termed crypto-fascist, embracing the Nietzschean Will to Power and wedding it to a strong Romantic streak and an idealism rooted in an impulse toward the epic and mythical. The subsequent development of metal saw waves of innovators refine the artform, bringing greater emphasis to its central values and incrementally stripping away peripheral elements and the last vestiges of liberal ideology. This trend reached its peak in the mid-90's with bands like Burzum and Graveland, who expressed openly that which had hitherto merely been implied. Far from being usurpers of metal, they represent the purest and greatest expression of what metal can and should be.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+3]I CAN'T BELIEVE I JUST ATE THAT ENTIRE BAG OF DUMB! [/size][/font]

 

[Planetary Eulogy]

Several of you are making the mistake of reducing fascism to a political movement. That's an artifact of liberal socialization. Liberal thought creates a false distinction between the personal and the political, viewing the latter only within the narrow scope of a particular type of social interaction. Fascism is, of course, a political movement (in the narrowest sense), but beyond that, it is a form of Romantic idealism that looks to the ancient and mythic as its source of inspiration (just as Sabbath, Priest, Slayer and, yes, Burzum did).

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Who the fuck cares?

 

[skeptik]

Fascism is a form of Romantic idealism that looks to the ancient and mythic as its source of inspiration (just as Sabbath, Priest, Slayer and, yes, Burzum did).

Show me the definition of the word fascism that reflects this and I'll agree with you, but I myself can't find one.

 

[Erik]

Show me the definition of the word fascism that reflects this and I'll agree with you, but I myself can't find one.

fas·cism Audio pronunciation of "Fascism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshzm)
n.

1. often Fascism
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Where in this definition does it mention "a form of Romantic idealism that looks to the ancient and mythic as its source of inspiration"? If you can't back any of this stuff up, you're just looking like a ranting fool. And what is so excellent about dictatorship? Last time I checked, it's never existed without huge, gaping flaws.

Your dictionaries are all infested with liberal judeo-christian propaganda

 

[skeptik]

I'm sorry, I forgot I was American for a second.

 

[skeptik]

Also, I clearly said that if he proves his point with sources then I'll agree with him. I looked for alternate definitions and found none myself, but I'm sure the mighty Falconsbane will have the trusty Elitist Book of Definitions handy anyway.

 

[Thanatopsis123]

While reading one of PE's posts just now I was reminded of this bit from Family Guy:

Peter: Well, I'm gettin' something really special too. And by special I don't mean special like that Kleinaman boy down the street. More special like... like Special K, the cereal. Hey, what do they do with the regular K? And for that matter, what ever happend to K. Ballard? You know, if you said mallard and you had a cold, it would sound like ballard.

Brian: Do you listen to yourself when you talk?

Peter: I drift in and out.

 

[LordFireworm]

Your dictionaries are all infested with liberal judeo-christian propaganda

Hahahaha! Now the common dictionary is being attacked?
This is getting absurd.

 

[Tanith]

Several of you are making the mistake of reducing fascism to a political movement. That's an artifact of liberal socialization. Liberal thought creates a false distinction between the personal and the political, viewing the latter only within the narrow scope of a particular type of social interaction. Fascism is, of course, a political movement (in the narrowest sense), but beyond that, it is a form of Romantic idealism that looks to the ancient and mythic as its source of inspiration (just as Sabbath, Priest, Slayer and, yes, Burzum did).

Dont be stupid, fascism has nothing to do with "Romantic idealism". Fascism is a political stance, nothing more, nothing less. Apparently my liberal thought makes me unable to see that fascism has roots in romance (???), so I guess I better just shoot myself now and get it over with, cause I fail to see how a form of government hell bent on nationalism, racism and suppresion has anything to do with the ancient and the mythic. Fascism doesn't have inspiration, its simply a system based on greed and power.

 

[AjDeath]

Booooyaaaaaaah


Steven A. Smith says PE is Slava Medvadenko.

 

[Jean-Pierre]

Several of you are making the mistake of reducing fascism to a political movement. That's an artifact of liberal socialization. Liberal thought creates a false distinction between the personal and the political, viewing the latter only within the narrow scope of a particular type of social interaction. Fascism is, of course, a political movement (in the narrowest sense), but beyond that, it is a form of Romantic idealism that looks to the ancient and mythic as its source of inspiration (NO).

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Haha I love how Falco randomly wanders in and starts an argument and everyone falls for it. It's so silly.

 

[Jean-Pierre]

Haha I love how Falco randomly wanders in and starts an argument and everyone falls for it. It's so silly.

Well, lets say hypothetically, you're a fourth grader sitting at your lunchtable, and the retarded kid spasms. Are you going to notice it or look away?

 

[Lies and Perfidy]

Hey Morny, come back to metal-archives. We're running out of good trolls.

Oh yeah, if I were to argue this, I could say that just as you accuse us of reducing fascism to a political ideology, you make the mistake of assuming that metal's reflection of one component of fascism (a rejection of popular values) means it involves ALL of them. Christianity was a rejection of popular values in ancient Rome. JESUS WAS A FASCIST!

 

[MasterOLightning]

I am submitting this post under the pretense that this thread is not a joke or trolling attempt. The deliberate use of "big words" and made up definitions leads me to believe it could be. How one could connect a political system with no real relevance to the early metal musicians, and say that they were subconsciously longing to achieve these bullshit ideals through their music, is beyond me. Do you think that Steve Harris has a sculpture of Mussolini in his basement that he kneels in front of while writing songs, quietly contemplating, "How can I be more like you, Great One?" Fuck no. This topic is bullshit. End of story. The NWOBHM bands were pretty accessible, and had a greater degree of popularity than any other section of metal bands. And metal was not a reaction against rock and roll at all. I believe you're thinking of punk. Metal was an outgrowth of rock as rock bands developed a heavier and faster style. Early metal was a direct progression. There are so many things I found wrong with this topic, that I could go on for much longer, but I think most people here feel the same.

Let's see what GoD wants to say later...

 

[the phoenix]

Ideology is a big part of the music-listening experience for me. At the same time, I am open minded and will listen to music of various ideological backgrounds. People seem to think that the two are mutually exclusive, but really they're not.

 

[Blaphbee]

http://www.saint-andre.com/ismbook/R.html#Romanticism
http://www.saint-andre.com/ismbook/I.html#Idealism

"Music is entertainment."

"It's just friggin' music."

"People need to fuck off with these ideology arguments."

All subjective assessments, that either

a) insult the hell out of the artists who consider what they do to be something more, something beyond such a sweeping generalization, or

b) parrot the postmodernist socratisms that render all critical discussion about an idea inert.

This position ratifies and endorses only what is useful to itself, i.e. a normativized status quo, while removing the possibility to objectively observe why things are as they are. By semantically bogging the discussion down amidst attempts to reduce, separate and compartmentalize the totality of metal into "isms", and haggle over dictionary definitions that conflict with one another, the point of effective comprehension of metal in a holistic fashion becomes lost.

Since you all seem content to do nothing but deconstruct arguments into their constituent parts and somehow prove that because one aspect doesn't live up to your's or the dictionary's definition it is wholly false, all this snivelling amounts to little more than sophistry designed for mob appeal.

If you can't objectively, critically prove Planetary Eulogy's entire stand-alone position to be wrong-headed, getting forty of your closest e-buddies to agree with you in your contention since no one can put together a coherent reply, much less rebuttal, does not win a debate. "Geez guys, none of us can argue against what he just said, but he is absolutely wrong...somehow. None of us agree with his position, yet we all have different viewpoints ourselves - I get it!! It means that none of it matters!! Since I don't put this level of thought into anything of worth, and it makes me feel small when someone else does, I'll shanghai as many people as I can into essentially putting forth our generalized position: no one gives a shit, because our apathy pervades us. When none of us have to try, we can all get along so much easier. Confronted with all of us laughing at you, why would you bother attempting to dissuade our myopic vision of a boundless world of entertainment?"

The ideas (rather: truths) of Fascism, Romanticism, Idealism, Liberalism et al. have existed eternally; 20th century Italy was not the unique inauguration of Fascist manifestation upon the planet, merely one instance of it's conception employed in a political setting. Just because we as humans can comprehend, analyze and observe the concepts in the apparent world and within ourselves in the context of another human-derived label - "values" - does not make these concepts the property of humanity. We merely came to understand them and put names to them. And in trying to assemble them piecemeal in an attempt to construct something with any cohesion beyond the bubblegum used to hold it together is as practically useless as it is spiritually corrupt.

These terms exist outside of and beyond the political and social limits you all conventionally understand them in; as such they can easily find parallels within a proposed definition of a musical genre as they can within a political setting.

 

[AjDeath]

Hey Morny, come back to metal-archives. We're running out of good trolls.

Oh yeah, if I were to argue this, I could say that just as you accuse us of reducing fascism to a political ideology, you make the mistake of assuming that metal's reflection of one component of fascism (a rejection of popular values) means it involves ALL of them. Christianity was a rejection of popular values in ancient Rome. JESUS WAS A FASCIST!

That fucking shithead. Fuck Jesus for being a fascist. Fuck him in his no good fascist asshole. My eyes have been opened. I bet he was a gay too. What a sissy boy he must have been.

 

[AjDeath]

http://www.saint-andre.com/ismbook/R.html#Romanticism
http://www.saint-andre.com/ismbook/I.html#Idealism

"Music is entertainment."

"It's just friggin' music."

"People need to fuck off with these ideology arguments."

All subjective assessments, that either

a) insult the hell out of the artists who consider what they do to be something more, something beyond such a sweeping generalization, or

b) parrot the postmodernist socratisms that render all critical discussion about an idea inert.

This position ratifies and endorses only what is useful to itself, i.e. a normativized status quo, while removing the possibility to objectively observe why things are as they are. By semantically bogging the discussion down amidst attempts to reduce, separate and compartmentalize the totality of metal into "isms", and haggle over dictionary definitions that conflict with one another, the point of effective comprehension of metal in a holistic fashion becomes lost.

Since you all seem content to do nothing but deconstruct arguments into their constituent parts and somehow prove that because one aspect doesn't live up to your's or the dictionary's definition it is wholly false, all this snivelling amounts to little more than sophistry designed for mob appeal.

If you can't objectively, critically prove Planetary Eulogy's entire stand-alone position to be wrong-headed, getting forty of your closest e-buddies to agree with you in your contention since no one can put together a coherent reply, much less rebuttal, does not win a debate. "Geez guys, none of us can argue against what he just said, but he is absolutely wrong...somehow. None of us agree with his position, yet we all have different viewpoints ourselves - I get it!! It means that none of it matters!! Since I don't put this level of thought into anything of worth, and it makes me feel small when someone else does, I'll shanghai as many people as I can into essentially putting forth our generalized position: no one gives a shit, because our apathy pervades us. When none of us have to try, we can all get along so much easier. Confronted with all of us laughing at you, why would you bother attempting to dissuade our myopic vision of a boundless world of entertainment?"

The ideas (rather: truths) of Fascism, Romanticism, Idealism, Liberalism et al. have existed eternally; 20th century Italy was not the unique inauguration of Fascist manifestation upon the planet, merely one instance of it's conception employed in a political setting. Just because we as humans can comprehend, analyze and observe the concepts in the apparent world and within ourselves in the context of another human-derived label - "values" - does not make these concepts the property of humanity. We merely came to understand them and put names to them. And in trying to assemble them piecemeal in an attempt to construct something with any cohesion beyond the bubblegum used to hold it together is as practically useless as it is spiritually corrupt.

These terms exist outside of and beyond the political and social limits you all conventionally understand them in; as such they can easily find parallels within a proposed definition of a musical genre as they can within a political setting.

Since I am so dimwitted and do not know the true definitions of terms such as fascism, romanticism, idealism, liberalism, et al. Enlighten me. and maybe I will be able to see this from your point of view, really, I do not see why someone hasn't given these definitions out yet.