Metal and Fascist Idealism

[anonymousnick2001]

Well, lets say hypothetically, you're a fourth grader sitting at your lunchtable, and the retarded kid spasms. Are you going to notice it or look away?

You rule, man!

"Music is entertainment."

"It's just friggin' music."

"People need to fuck off with these ideology arguments."

All subjective assessments, that either

a) insult the hell out of the artists who consider what they do to be something more, something beyond such a sweeping generalization, or

b) parrot the postmodernist socratisms that render all critical discussion about an idea inert.

This position ratifies and endorses only what is useful to itself, i.e. a normativized status quo, while removing the possibility to objectively observe why things are as they are. By semantically bogging the discussion down amidst attempts to reduce, separate and compartmentalize the totality of metal into "isms", and haggle over dictionary definitions that conflict with one another, the point of effective comprehension of metal in a holistic fashion becomes lost.

Since you all seem content to do nothing but deconstruct arguments into their constituent parts and somehow prove that because one aspect doesn't live up to your's or the dictionary's definition it is wholly false, all this snivelling amounts to little more than sophistry designed for mob appeal.

If you can't objectively, critically prove Planetary Eulogy's entire stand-alone position to be wrong-headed, getting forty of your closest e-buddies to agree with you in your contention since no one can put together a coherent reply, much less rebuttal, does not win a debate. "Geez guys, none of us can argue against what he just said, but he is absolutely wrong...somehow. None of us agree with his position, yet we all have different viewpoints ourselves - I get it!! It means that none of it matters!! Since I don't put this level of thought into anything of worth, and it makes me feel small when someone else does, I'll shanghai as many people as I can into essentially putting forth our generalized position: no one gives a shit, because our apathy pervades us. When none of us have to try, we can all get along so much easier. Confronted with all of us laughing at you, why would you bother attempting to dissuade our myopic vision of a boundless world of entertainment?"

The ideas (rather: truths) of Fascism, Romanticism, Idealism, Liberalism et al. have existed eternally; 20th century Italy was not the unique inauguration of Fascist manifestation upon the planet, merely one instance of it's conception employed in a political setting. Just because we as humans can comprehend, analyze and observe the concepts in the apparent world and within ourselves in the context of another human-derived label - "values" - does not make these concepts the property of humanity. We merely came to understand them and put names to them. And in trying to assemble them piecemeal in an attempt to construct something with any cohesion beyond the bubblegum used to hold it together is as practically useless as it is spiritually corrupt.

These terms exist outside of and beyond the political and social limits you all conventionally understand them in; as such they can easily find parallels within a proposed definition of a musical genre as they can within a political setting.

Haha. Kill yourself. Slowly.

 

[Blaphbee]

Next Lesson in dealing with postmodernists:

Once they stand exposed, they immediately go on the defensive with rampant ad hominems. Another diversionary tactic, and based on this - "Haha. Kill yourself. Slowly." - an obviously well-thought-out one.

 

[Djm]

Booooyaaaaaaah


Steven A. Smith says PE is Slava Medvadenko.

This is the LAST place I would ever expect to see a mention of Steven A. Smith.

 

[Nico]

Who needs to think when we can bang our heads? Isnt that what metal is about? Or did I hit my head one too many times against a solid object?

 

[Erik]

Hahahaha! Now the common dictionary is being attacked?
This is getting absurd.

Hey check out this piece of a common dictionary

 

[byrne]

Well, lets say hypothetically, you're a fourth grader sitting at your lunchtable, and the retarded kid spasms. Are you going to notice it or look away?

I agree with Tanith.

*Oh*
Btw, the wankery of the english language in this thread is fucked. Get over yourselves.

 

[lord667]

Several of you are making the mistake of reducing fascism to a political movement. That's an artifact of liberal socialization. Liberal thought creates a false distinction between the personal and the political, viewing the latter only within the narrow scope of a particular type of social interaction. Fascism is, of course, a political movement (in the narrowest sense), but beyond that, it is a form of Romantic idealism that looks to the ancient and mythic as its source of inspiration (just as Sabbath, Priest, Slayer and, yes, Burzum did).

PE: You're absolutely right that fascism has a base in Romantic idealism. Quite literally, since it takes its inspiration from a mythicised Golden Age of the Roman Empire. However, as you also rightly say, it is a form of Romantic idealism. That means that a Romantic idealist is just a Romantic idealist: not necessarily also a fascist. Looking to the ancient and mythic for inspiration are hardly conclusive indicators of fascist thought. Sabbath, indeed, opposed strong governments and dictatorial leaders, whenever they addressed the topic at all.

 

[lord667]

The ideas (rather: truths) of Fascism, Romanticism, Idealism, Liberalism et al. have existed eternally;

Then the person who is using the ideas in their eternal context should not use labels for them that refer to specific 19th/20th-century political movements. It's not too hard to come up with a more accurate word, e.g. "proto-fascist", that actually represents what you're talking about instead of confusing the issue.

 

[LordFireworm]

Hey check out this piece of a common dictionary

Thank fucking Christ.
In fairness, I've read stupider shit on here and had no idea whether or not your own ideals fell under the same pink umbrella as Demiurge's.

 

[no country for old wainds]

http://www.metal-rules.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=8599

Here's a relevant one:

As for the definition of 'Fascism' - in the strict sense it means of course the authoritarian/hierarchical post-WWI European political movement. However political movements don't materialize out of thin air; they find their nutrition in certain cultural grounds, and in turn they themselves inspire and influence culture. And this is the meaning of "fascism in the broader sense of the word", or "fascist culture", which is what is used here in the context of elements found in heavy metal.

What exactly is this comprised of? - there are quite a few relevant concepts here: the Will to Power; the Survival of the Fittest; the spiritual glorification of war; the emphasis on a mystical/metaphysical aspect to life, as opposed to strict rationalism; the importance of myths; the rejection of Christian/liberal "slave morality"; the rejection of the "money cult"; the rejection of egalitarian modes of expression; the worship of romantic ideals of Beauty and Power, as opposed to the ugliness, mediocrity and timidity of modernity; the idealization of heroism and nobility; a strong and simple iconography based on primal symbols; and even the idea of music that is consciously oppressive, monolithic and triumphant. All of these are common to "fascist culture" and to heavy metal.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Well, lets say hypothetically, you're a fourth grader sitting at your lunchtable, and the retarded kid spasms. Are you going to notice it or look away?

Notice it, but only because I saw that the kid had "Jean-Pierre" on his name tag and I figured there might be a correlation.

 

[lord667]

The problem in that thread, as in this one, is that Sol Invictus/Planetary Eulogy is using personalised, non-general, or made-up definitions for words like "metal" and "fascism". Instead of twisting existing words (and defining Fascism as an eternal set of ideals or a broad general outlook is twisting the word) he should come up with more accurate ones. Failing that, he should include a Planetary Eulogy glossary with his posts. As it is, he apparently considers an argument "won" if he can veil his point in enough semantic sleight-of-hand that nobody can even understand what it is until the second page of the thread at the earliest.

I sense that this thread is turning into a complete waste of time, so I'll make my final statements. First of all, "Romantic Idealism" does not automatically equate to fascism, either in the real sense or the Planetary-ese sense. Romanticism, as you'll see in the links posted earlier by one of Planetary's sympathisers, means very little except an emphasis on emotion, and idealism means clinging to a personal set of values. Liberalism, Communism and Fascism can all claim an equal root in something that could be thought of as Romantic Idealism, so to prove a link between metal and Romantic Idealism offers little support for a metal link to fascism.

Secondly, I agree that music inevitably expresses the ideology of the artist. But it does so on an Expressionistic level, that is, expressing the emotional rather than political side of the ideology, which can be the same for different people and different modes of thought.

Thirdly and finally, only a complete idiot would deny that some metal has fascist potential. The combination of energy, aggression and artistic scope that metal offers makes it ideal for those who want to glorify war, smash states, promote warrior cults, etc., so I think we'd be fools to deny a certain inherent suitability for fascism in the music - as opposed to, say, White Light neo-hippyism, which would have a job to fit - as one of many things that it could comfortably play host to. But, in my opinion, it's equally foolish to say that metal is fascist in nature just because of a partial resemblance between "metal" things and "broader fascist" things. Again in my opinion, it proves only that "metal" and "broader fascist" elements share a common heritage.

 

[AjDeath]

The problem in that thread, as in this one, is that Sol Invictus/Planetary Eulogy is using personalised, non-general, or made-up definitions for words like "metal" and "fascism". Instead of twisting existing words (and defining Fascism as an eternal set of ideals or a broad general outlook is twisting the word) he should come up with more accurate ones. Failing that, he should include a Planetary Eulogy glossary with his posts. As it is, he apparently considers an argument "won" if he can veil his point in enough semantic sleight-of-hand that nobody can even understand what it is until the second page of the thread at the earliest.

All a few of us asked were for someone to define these terms as they mean them. Me, being such a dumb Americaner, automatically took fascism at face value pertaining to it's most recent context in history. Anyways, you can not win or even present an argument being so damn ambiguous.

The argument PE presents is null anyways because the terms he used (meant) were so broad in meaning that it doesn't matter. It would be like me defining a tomato as any fruit or vegetable that has seeds and is edible. It doesn't even fucking matter.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

I sense that this thread is turning into a complete waste of time, so I'll make my final statements. First of all, "Romantic Idealism" does not automatically equate to fascism, either in the real sense or the Planetary-ese sense. Romanticism, as you'll see in the links posted earlier by one of Planetary's sympathisers, means very little except an emphasis on emotion, and idealism means clinging to a personal set of values. Liberalism, Communism and Fascism can all claim an equal root in something that could be thought of as Romantic Idealism, so to prove a link between metal and Romantic Idealism offers little support for a metal link to fascism.

Secondly, I agree that music inevitably expresses the ideology of the artist. But it does so on an Expressionistic level, that is, expressing the emotional rather than political side of the ideology, which can be the same for different people and different modes of thought.

Thirdly and finally, only a complete idiot would deny that some metal has fascist potential. The combination of energy, aggression and artistic scope that metal offers makes it ideal for those who want to glorify war, smash states, promote warrior cults, etc., so I think we'd be fools to deny a certain inherent suitability for fascism in the music - as opposed to, say, White Light neo-hippyism, which would have a job to fit - as one of many things that it could comfortably play host to. But, in my opinion, it's equally foolish to say that metal is fascist in nature just because of a partial resemblance between "metal" things and "broader fascist" things. Again in my opinion, it proves only that "metal" and "broader fascist" elements share a common heritage.

This was an excellent set of points you made here. I guess I got beaten to the punch. Well done. However, about the third point, I just have to mention that although it may seem as if it has streamlined since its very inception, metal has never been branded with a particular code or fashion or political ideology. In fact, the accessibility of metal to hybridization with numerous other styles of music(i.e. polka, techno, jazz, etc.) simply reinforces the fact that metal knows no bounds or limitations. Although to some the fusion of metal's seemingly war-mongering militant style with fascist or "broader fascist" ideals seems natural, I maintain that the inclusion of so-called neo-hippyism is equally viable in the context that metal is universal. Here is where the Romantic Idealism plays in. If any mood is purely indicative of what metal is in a nutshell, it is Romantic Idealism. An emotional set of beliefs or feelings expressed through a powerful medium of sonic bludgeoning that mirrors the spontaniety and explosive quality that is associated with human emotion. PE's coupling of Romantic Idealism and fascism was appropriate, probably because he feels great emotion for his fascist ideals or the ideals in general. Metal is universal in that sense because it is a vehicle for any kind of intense emotion, regardless of political ideology. This is referenced by your second point. I also bring up the 'hair bands' of the 80's. They usually picked love as a topic because, although many are shamed to admit it, metal is a powerful musical tool for expressing as complex a human emotion as love.

 

[Planetary Eulogy]

PE: You're absolutely right that fascism has a base in Romantic idealism. Quite literally, since it takes its inspiration from a mythicised Golden Age of the Roman Empire. However, as you also rightly say, it is a form of Romantic idealism. That means that a Romantic idealist is just a Romantic idealist: not necessarily also a fascist. Looking to the ancient and mythic for inspiration are hardly conclusive indicators of fascist thought. Sabbath, indeed, opposed strong governments and dictatorial leaders, whenever they addressed the topic at all.

A couple of thoughts:

1. Fascism and Romanticism are indistinguishable in terms of values and ideals. Fascism merely articulated openly that which was implied by the 19th century Romantics. The terms are effectively interchangable, as all Romanticism can accurately be said to have a fundamentally fascist character.

2. Sabbath were certainly not fascist in any open sense, but the latent similarities that would later be more fully articulated were already present. The comparison here should be made to the earliest figures of the Romantic movement, who, while they were motivated by a disgust with the failures of the Enlightenment, still had not yet fully separated themselves from the ideas of the Enlightenment. They were transitional figures with one foot in the Enlightenment and one foot in the mythic past. Later Romantics stripped away the vestigal remains of Enlightenment thought (just as later metal bands stripped the vestigal remains of liberal thought from the movement that Sabbath wrought), and the Romantic movement reached its full flowering with figures like Nietzsche and Wagner, men whose ideas and ideals were fascist in every sense of the word.

 

[lord667]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Fascism and Romanticism are indistinguishable in terms of values and ideals. Fascism merely articulated openly that which was implied by the 19th century Romantics. The terms are effectively interchangable, as all Romanticism can accurately be said to have a fundamentally fascist character.

2. Sabbath were certainly not fascist in any open sense, but the latent similarities that would later be more fully articulated were already present. The comparison here should be made to the earliest figures of the Romantic movement, who, while they were motivated by a disgust with the failures of the Enlightenment, still had not yet fully separated themselves from the ideas of the Enlightenment. They were transitional figures with one foot in the Enlightenment and one foot in the mythic past. Later Romantics stripped away the vestigal remains of Enlightenment thought (just as later metal bands stripped the vestigal remains of liberal thought from the movement that Sabbath wrought), and the Romantic movement reached its full flowering with figures like Nietzsche and Wagner, men whose ideas and ideals were fascist in every sense of the word.

I've nothing further to say on this subject right now. However, thanks for the food-for-thought.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Whoa, whoa! Wagner was a fascist?!


*burns copy of Der Ring des Nibelungen*

 

[CountSorion]

A specific style of goverment REQUIRES a specific form of society to work. What is democracy? Is it just a specific type of goverment? Hell no. It requires certain beliefs not commonly mentioned in the dictionary. Egalitarianism should be an obvious requirement. Society will then be shaped acording to these beliefs. Perhaps one could say that the goverment democracy is a product of the democratic values.

Fascism works in the same way. Take a look at nazi germany. Was it just the type of goverment that distuinguished it from (as an example) the United Kingdom? Was the difference just as simple as the fact that no elections were allowed in Germany? I sincerely hope no one will answer yes to this question. The whole society was different. The definion used in the dictionary does not cover this.

(I hope this post made some sense. It was made in a hurry before I went to bed)

 

[anonymousnick2001]

It makes sense. However, I fail to see how Romantic Idealism is not more akin to the kind of fiery emotion that can only be expressed in a liberalized environment. People tend to look down on Egalitarianism, and yet I find that the passion imbued by faith in God and enacting His grace through helping others is a deep and powerful basis for creating art. A Romantic notion, if you will.

 

[serial killer]

personaly I dont think there is any fasisim in metal. becuase we're not a bunch of fuckin hippies speaking about poltics through music, because theres no real cause veitnam was a whole different story. I know R.A.T.M. tried it and even though the music was good I just dont give a shit.
but maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is some "hidden agenda"