Metal and Fascist Idealism
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It's a tradition of any metal BBS....there'll be a "now playing" thread, a "ur favoutire drummer" thread, one angsty goth guy will post a tearful message about how his relationship with his girlfriend isn't so good and ask for advice - and eventually one of Spinozza Gay Prozak's bumblefucks or even the man himself will turn up and attempt to once again foist his shit upon the world. They are more eager to proselytize than your average TV Evangelist, and just as lacking in true message. By participating in this thread and putting forth a measured argument you're wasting your effort and crediting them with more intelligence than they possess (although probably less than they like to think they possess). Notice how the participation of the author of this thread has dropped off since he encountered more intellectual opposition than expected...
Am I alone in detesting anus.com and its kvlt of polysyllabic sophistry? I don't believe that metal is "just entertainment" or even that it's possible to take metal too seriously, but I do like to keep my metal divorced from pretentiousness (and definitely divorced from small-minded bigotry masquerading as high-minded ideals). For those still determined to slug it out verbally, I reckon the main points have been covered (by people smarter than I - kudos to the likes of lord667 et al):
Metal is a matter of emotional expression. Fascism is a matter of political orientation. These aren't immediately interchangeable. Look at a band like Axis of Advance - a band containing members of possible fascist leaning (esp. J. Read) who are eager to disassociate themselves from any kind of political message, and who produce music which is essentially Egalitarian - the whole of humankind is rendered equal by it's capacity to destroy, to resist, or to die like dogs all to the same degree (you'll find similar messages in music from most all bands producing nihilist misanthropic bm).
Metal shares tenets with Romanticism and Idealism. This does not equate to fascism. And no, you can't make up your own definitions, that's what some uncharitable people (like me) would call bullshitmongering.
Someone mentioned that Fascism is not just a personal ideology or a governmental system of rule, but also a *societal mechanism* which requires the establishment of certain rules of living in order to control the populace. In such a society, metal, and long-haired ugly scruffs like you and I, would flounder and die.
If anything that makes for a substantial argument for metal's fundamental incompatibility with Fascism, due to its essential iconoclasm.
This'll most likely be my only post, since I'm not exactly a reg, and also because this thread was headed nowhere of worth from the very moment the first word was typed....
Am I alone in detesting anus.com and its kvlt of polysyllabic sophistry? I don't believe that metal is "just entertainment" or even that it's possible to take metal too seriously, but I do like to keep my metal divorced from pretentiousness (and definitely divorced from small-minded bigotry masquerading as high-minded ideals). For those still determined to slug it out verbally, I reckon the main points have been covered (by people smarter than I - kudos to the likes of lord667 et al):
Metal is a matter of emotional expression. Fascism is a matter of political orientation. These aren't immediately interchangeable. Look at a band like Axis of Advance - a band containing members of possible fascist leaning (esp. J. Read) who are eager to disassociate themselves from any kind of political message, and who produce music which is essentially Egalitarian - the whole of humankind is rendered equal by it's capacity to destroy, to resist, or to die like dogs all to the same degree (you'll find similar messages in music from most all bands producing nihilist misanthropic bm).
Metal shares tenets with Romanticism and Idealism. This does not equate to fascism. And no, you can't make up your own definitions, that's what some uncharitable people (like me) would call bullshitmongering.
Someone mentioned that Fascism is not just a personal ideology or a governmental system of rule, but also a *societal mechanism* which requires the establishment of certain rules of living in order to control the populace. In such a society, metal, and long-haired ugly scruffs like you and I, would flounder and die.
If anything that makes for a substantial argument for metal's fundamental incompatibility with Fascism, due to its essential iconoclasm.
This'll most likely be my only post, since I'm not exactly a reg, and also because this thread was headed nowhere of worth from the very moment the first word was typed....
Lyle
<3 azudai <3
Are you kidding me? It's possible that he has things to do in the real world, instead of feed the Internet-drama-machine.GyakuSatsu said:
And why do you consider this a bad thing? It would be incredible if we lived in a healthy society where dysfunctional, socially-disaffected losers with no self-esteem had no place, or reason to exist.
Is your "rebellion" such a comfortable way of living? Must be nice to go through life one-dimensionally apathetic to making a meaningful change in the world.
Life Sucks
and then you die
Nico
Onward!
GyakuSatsu's post is the most logicaly profound opinion I've ever witnessed on this board.
I think it deserves a standing ovation.
I think it deserves a standing ovation.
no country for old wainds
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GyakuSatsu said:
I won't bother tackling this, it's just another anus-bashing paragraph which can basically be summarised as "I disagree with their views and that makes me better than them".
...You made the longest post in the thread.
And PE rarely visits here, it's safe to presume he's not avoiding the thread because he feels like he's lost the argument.
Meh, Anus gets a lot of hatred because it's self-assured and it's associated with the great taboo - racism. Even though there's hardly any racial hatred on there, just a belief that race is part of one's identity, and a belief that nationalism is more productive than mixing different cultures together creating a counter-productive clusterfuck. There's not a lot of pretense in the 'Values' section (which you probably haven't bothered to read).
Anyway, like I've said before, people who insult anus.com are generally more arrogant and obnoxious than those who defend it and contribute to it.
I personally don't think it can be said that metal and fascism are interchangable terms, but I do believe that many fascist values have been core to metal's evolution since the beginning, particularly inherent to the genres which have evolved the most artistically. Nobody even implied that every metal band has a fascist worldview, it has only been implied that the bands who have moved the genre forward have stuck to set of core values, many of which are fascist (increasingly so in bands that approach greatness).
I don't know about AoA, but there's certainly never been a sense of egalitarianism within the circle of artistically relevant BM bands. Give me a few more examples of nihilist misanthropic BM bands that have it, though.
Nobody's making up their own definitions - it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to see how similar Romanticism and Fascism are, for example.
Well I agree with Blaphbee that most metalheads are worthless, so that's no big loss. A lot of metal would be unnecessary I agree, but to me that's like saying 'I don't want to complete this game because then I won't have any more of it to do'.
...Unless you're of the belief that this scenesterism and comradery that turns metal into pop rather than defines it as metal, like I am.
Is that your get-out clause in case people find a bunch of holes in your post which you can't fill?
That was in fact my get-out clause to avoid being goaded back into this "argument" (trolling attempt by the thread author, IMO) by statements like that one - however, in order to make that known I have to make at least one more post now, don't I? I'm not concerned about people picking holes in what I said (after all, you didn't manage it), since should that happen and were I intent to carry on massaging my own ego by arguing here, I could simply steamroller over them like has happened on the "metal=has fascism" side of the argument...
What in fact "makes me better than them", if you're determined to translate it into those terms, is that I don't take my views and use them to create pointless, eye-wearying threads in places where I know the only outcome will be hostility and a lot of ego-wanking all round. I've seen this kind of topical explosive planted on at least 2 other metal boards by Anus followers, and I don't frequent that many.
I'm almost certain it wasn't, but I'm not pedantic enough to want to go back through the pages and verify that trivial fact. Regardless, I tend to type a lot anyway - the basic content of that post was simple; 1) I believed the original post in this thread to be just inflammatory hot air, and that 2) Any more arguing is superfluous, since the flaws in the original "argument" had already clearly been outlined.
My point exactly. How often do _you_ go off to other boards and post threads guaranteed to get people hot under the collar, never to return? Is that his get out clause in case people find a bunch of holes in his post which he can't fill?
I do hate anus for its self-assuredness. The self-assuredness of attempting to define what metal is, while not being very apologetic or explanatory about the fact that this is a massive, subjective, and somewhat arbitrary undertaking, or the fact that the definition they have arrived at is...questionable. Anus fans tend to back up the truths they have arrived at with a lot of what someone else called "semantic slight of hand".
What irritates me is that so many weak-minded others are so easily swayed by the confidence that anus has in its definition. I have seen label sites that copy/paste from Anus in place of providing a proper bio for a certain band, or people who casually throw out a link to the "metal faq" at Anus when attempting to explain metal to new fans of the music. The herd mentality sickens me no less for the fact that those people are trying to join what seems to them like an intellectual herd - or more likely a herd that will make them "elite". You mention detractors of anus being obnoxious, but I have hardly come across any who insult Anus at all. Incidentally I have read the values page, a very long time ago - but so what if I hadn't? I don't consider it compulsory for me to know what that site is about - their definition of metal is completely irrelevant to me, and the "hessianism" of no interest. Whatever the case, this is an argument of Like and Dislike and is fruitless.
Also, don't mix the terms "racism" and "nationalism" so easily. Someone already pointed out that nationalism can be compatible with a globalist mindset.
I was saying that emotional expression and political orientation are not interchangeable terms. As such, the act of producing metal is not (inherently) a means of broadcasting a fascist worldview, *not even necessarily if you are a fascist*.
ALL nihilist misanthropic bands have it, simply by dint of their being nihilist and misanthropic! I was surprised, actually, to see that same point of mine echoed in a "black metal FAQ" written by an anus.com poster, a short while after posting:
http://robm.kicks-ass.net/bm.php
it is covered in section 16 "why are there misanthropic black metal bands?". However, this guy tries to cover himself and the general anus.com stand-point by creating a stark distinction between nihilist misanthropic BM and NSBM. Incidentally, I didn't find that FAQ too troublesome in that it tried to inform, as opposed to obfuscate as is what normally happens with Prozak's cronies. Some opinion was passed off as fact as always, but it was tolerable.
AoA are not a BM band (not by my reckoning anyway, although I've heard many others say different) - I picked them as an example simply because they have been said to have fascist members, despite the message of their music (not their opinions - separating politics from emotions, remember?) being egalitarian. I wont try and pass the subjective off as fact - this is opinion, as is all evaluation of music.
You said that "nobody even implied that all metal was fascist" - I believe that was implied, at one point, when talking about Black Sabbath and the values they must have held (secretly? subconsciously?) in wanting to create such music as metal at that time.
As stated, a similarity - especially a highly contested one - does not equate to a definition, and so you cannot hinge an argument on the fact that "Metal is Romantic, ergo Metal is Fascist". If you still genuinely believe in your standpoint by now, there is nothing further that can be said to dissuade you. Certainly not by someone as sick of this spurious debate as I am, by now.
Iconoclasm does not equal scenesterism or cameraderie, and I don't know where you get that from. Of course it is trendy to imagine yourself as a rebel, but that does not cheapen the act of actually being one by *avoiding* scenes and cliques. Scenesterism does turn metal into pop, I agree - which is why I'm not overly eager to associate myself with elitist BM or NSBM circles, since they're as rife with scenesters as those of any type of music you could find.
So what now? Are you going to say, "Ha ha, you made a really long post, you fell for it"? I'm done with this thread and this false argument.
anonymousnick2001
World's Greatest Vocalist
I like what you said, but the entire impact of your first post was lost in your posting a second time.
AjDeath
Of One Man's Sanity
I can't wait to live in your faggot gay grey world where if I do not have the same opinion of you I am labeled an outcast. Way to have your intelligence (or lack of) offer something to humanity. I am not the smartest person, but I know that idiotic shit that you think society should be is exactly what we need. HEy, let's all be your defnition of normal. Great.Blaphbee said:
no country for old wainds
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Or, we could look at it from another angle: He's fighting for what he believes in, regardless of whether 99% of people will ridicule him. Most of you are too interested in your social status to do that.
Actually I was under the impression that he's a busy guy who rarely gets a chance to visit any boards.
Being nihilists and all, of course they're going to believe that the only way of being objective is by working out what is healthy in context to the whole, and these are the results. You'll note that, for example, the columns on srp's Dark Legions site are listed under "Metal Opinions" rather than "Metal Facts", though.
Yes, and what irritates them is that so many more weak-minded fools are so easily enslaved by this unhealthy set of values. The kneejerk "omg taboo" reactions that have been all too common in this thread pretty much ensure the world's stagnation. Most of you are just as confident that the Anus guys are 'pretentious' and 'arrogant' and incorrect.
Sure, there's a certain omniscient tone present in many of the Anus members' posts, and it sways quite a few people's minds. Often those people are only in it to try and seem 'elite', yep, fair enough. Anus doesn't mind, however, because as long as a person's mind has been opened to them, that person has a chance of discovering logic in their worldview.
You have to be kidding about people not insulting Anus. Seriously. Nobody's going to agree with you on that one, I'm sure.
The last bit pretty much sums you up. You attack something you know little about; rather than opening your mind (people from anus never open their mind to moralism, I know, but that's just 'cause moralism was forced upon them originally, and they already fully understood that thought process before choosing this more productive one) to the possibility that there's some logic to their statements, you'd rather just respond negatively because 'they don't interest you'. You're basically one of the 'ignorance is bliss' crowd. I commonly refer to these people as 'dipshits'.
But metal evolved with core values, regardless, many of which are akin to fascism. You're not contradicting this.
"Incidentally, their peers often regard the resulting music as something less than pure."
Don't know the band, can't comment.
In a sense. When I said that I meant a 'conscious' worldview.
Presuming they are very similar like I'm claiming, there's no reason why everything I've said isn't true.
There's certainly quite a bit of scenesterism among BM circles these days, but it's nothing like the current state of the 'metalheads' scene. It seems to me you're suggesting that people who fit into the 'metalhead' stereotype define metal, and that because fascism opposes the metalhead scene, it can't possibly be inherent to metal. Like I said before, this never defined metal, it ruined it, thus you're devoid of a valid point.
Nah, you'll reply.
Thanatopsis123
ç½é¬¼
This thread has almost become as awesome as this one
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158576
Almost.
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158576
Almost.
anonymousnick2001
World's Greatest Vocalist
V.V.V.V.V.
Houses Ov Mercury
Lyle
<3 azudai <3
REMINDER: this thread is fucking stupid the poster is fucking stupid Chris Blanc is fucking stupid
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