Metal Bands That Suck...8-]]

[CiG]

Because it leads to people like Fenriz calling Mercyful Fate a black metal band.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Hardly any less black metal than Rotting Christ

 

[zabu of nΩd]

black metal is defined aesthetically rather than technically

Early black metal certainly had technical parameters, but as of the late 90s onward it does seem pretty vague aside from "un-melodic extreme metal that isn't as technical as death metal".

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Stuff like Emperor, Sacramentum, etc is little more than melody. If it's un-something it's un-syncopated, very on-the-beat rhythmically in general.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Not sure if you're saying Emperor is melodic, but I would disagree if so. Power metal is melodic. Emperor is just *relatively* melodic compared to other black metal. They still have plenty of un-melodic parts.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Unless you're talking about the S/T EP with some of the more Celtic Frost-y moments, I don't know what you're hearing if you don't hear melody in Emperor. Both it and much of power metal focus on large melody lines at the front with the rhythms fast and unvaried.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

No shit I hear melody in Emperor, I'm just saying it's not consistently pure, clean, Beatles-esque melody all the way through their songs.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Didn't say jack shit about the Beatles or cleanliness. The point is that the rhythm is so neglected in a lot of black metal that it requires the melody line to be the defining feature of it.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

That's not what I meant when I said "melodic". "Contains a melody" does not mean the same thing as "melodic". You have a point about rhythm, though, and that's another noteworthy technical feature of black metal.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Would you not agree that the melody line is the defining and most immediately noticeable element of a song like I Am the Black Wizards?

 

[zabu of nΩd]

No, not unless black metal is one of your favorite subgenres and you're so used to all the other sonic elements that the melody stands out against them. Even the melody as a standalone consideration is hardly comparable to power/trad metal, let alone anything outside of metal (and there are plenty of metal bands whose melodies are comparable to melodies outside of metal).

 

[Talos of Atmora]

Onslaught

for people that don't actually enjoy thrash metal.

wut

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What would you say is the primary element of early Emperor then?

And while I agree that Norwegian second-wave black metal has its own thing melodically distinct from 80s metal, if we're talking about Rotting Christ or Varathron then nah not really. I don't disagree regarding influence outside of metal either, I've long said that post-80s black metal has significant non-metal influence, and may be better categorized as a form of alternative metal.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

wut

You can be an exception, love

But what I'm getting at is that all the reasons in-crowders use to criticize post-RTL Metallica are just as applicable to The Curse. And at the same time, it has that kind of 80s evil-metal camp to it, which I think is perfectly fine, but it's obvious that people like it because it's tr00 and speed metal-y and oldschool sounding.

 

[Talos of Atmora]

But what I'm getting at is that all the reasons in-crowders use to criticize post-RTL Metallica are just as applicable to The Curse. And at the same time, it has that kind of 80s evil-metal camp to it, which I think is perfectly fine, but it's obvious that people like it because it's tr00 and speed metal-y and oldschool sounding.

As someone who really likes In Search of Sanity, I get that.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I was mostly just talking about the first two, no one seems to really like In Search of Sanity (but it's my favorite of the three as well).

 

[Talos of Atmora]

I was mostly just talking about the first two, no one seems to really like In Search of Sanity (but it's my favorite of the three as well).

Yes, but seeing as how there is the view that In Search of Sanity basically killed the band, it becomes obvious.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

What would you say is the primary element of early Emperor then?

I wouldn't say there's a single primary element - there's a number of elements characteristic of early black metal (tremolo picking, raspy vocals, atmospheric production, etc).

And while I agree that Norwegian second-wave black metal has its own thing melodically distinct from 80s metal, if we're talking about Rotting Christ or Varathron then nah not really. I don't disagree regarding influence outside of metal either, I've long said that post-80s black metal has significant non-metal influence, and may be better categorized as a form of alternative metal.

When it comes to bands like Rotting Christ and Varathron, then I'd have to defer to CIG's suggestion that the distinction is aesthetic and not technical. I'm not that into black metal, so I'm not in a position to say much more, but I suspect (as I think you do) that there's a lot of genre cross-pollination from the 90s onward.

I also think there's an ideology of purism in the black metal community which makes it taboo to acknowledge genre crossovers, and this may be what leads people to call "anything" black metal, as you suggested earlier.

 

[Talos of Atmora]

I also think there's an ideology of purism in the black metal community which makes it taboo to acknowledge genre cross-over, and that this is what leads people to call "anything" black metal as you suggested earlier.

Oh, I can see it now.

Random Bystander: "Wait, wouldn't black metal be more appropriately classed as alternative metal due to its widespread integration of other genres including ambie-"

Trve Kvlt Black Metal Fan: "RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

 

[Mort Divine]

What would you say is the primary element of early Emperor then?

And while I agree that Norwegian second-wave black metal has its own thing melodically distinct from 80s metal, if we're talking about Rotting Christ or Varathron then nah not really. I don't disagree regarding influence outside of metal either, I've long said that post-80s black metal has significant non-metal influence, and may be better categorized as a form of alternative metal.