Miss California USA sparks controversy over gay marriage pageant question.

[edgeofthorns]

Most of the founding fathers were NOT Christian.

I wasn't implying that I thought they were Christians, but believed in a "higher power" or God. Honestly, I don't recall any of them talking or referring to Jesus Christ.

~Brian~

 

[edgeofthorns]

You should probably take into consideration Thomas Jefferson, who did not believe Jesus to be divine. I'm not sure if you've heard of the Jefferson Bible, but you might want to look into it. In fact, Jefferson hated the church, and was the one who called for a specific seperation of religion and government.

It's also known that George Washington himself, while attending Protestant Churches, did not receive communion under Bishop William White. His wife did.

in FACT...



Further: 'nature's God' is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence may, in fact, be specifically avoiding the use of God in the christian sense, however Deistic it may have been.

Even Ben Franklin was an Atheist, and you have to know what a roll he played in creating America.

I'm not trying to be a prick about this. This issue simply fascinates me, and I love talking about it.

Nailz, I'll reply to your remarks the same as I did Kaosaur's. I wasn't implying that these guys believed in "Christ" or proclaimed him as saviour. What I was saying, as a whole, that our founding fathers acknowledged God and his existence.

~Brian~

 

[OrbWeaver]

There's a difference between acknowledging (or believing) that there is a God, and following the Christian idea of God. It's not the same thing.

 

[miel]

I must admit that I find Perez's blog/site quite amusing.

~ Jen

 

[nailz]

There's a difference between acknowledging (or believing) that there is a God, and following the Christian idea of God. It's not the same thing.

^--this.

 

[AngraRULES]

I must admit that I find Perez's blog/site quite amusing.

~ Jen

Well, some people find Jerry Springer's show good. Some people like Paris Hilton (the whore). Others think Legally Blonde is a great movie.

It's all a matter of taste.

 

[Kaosaur]

Some people like Paris Hilton (the whore).
It's all a matter of taste.

You know, I used to think Paris was quite annoying and quite ugly. Then I realized she doesn't really do anything that impacts my life other than occasionally provide some entertainment. She's also mildly attractive (if you saw the Carl's Jr. ad you'd understand).

I've learned to tolerate Paris Hilton and her antics. While she did start with her family's money, she has risen to cultural awareness on her own merit. (Becoming the most covered celebrity in the world for doing nothing more than having sex on a grainy home camcorder is the god damned American Dream and you all know it!) She's obviously a very intelligent woman (having the best education money can buy) who is driven and successful. Quite the opposite of what most people think of when they picture a "whore".

Too bad about the Herpes thing, though.

 

[AngraRULES]

I see your point. She is just annoying. I can cite other ladies that would fall into the whore category if you'd like. I'm sure at some point, you, of all people, would agree with me on a couple.

 

[Kaosaur]

I see your point. She is just annoying. I can cite other ladies that would fall into the whore category if you'd like. I'm sure at some point, you, of all people, would agree with me on a couple.

Ouch! This might be the wrong place to be posting that.

 

[AngraRULES]

Of course, I was talking about prostitutes. Not that I know any. Do you, Eric?

 

[Kaosaur]

Ugh. This is the way rumors start, Milton.

 

[AngraRULES]

Back to the topic...

I read a really interesting article about Miss California's statement today. I wish I had brought the newspaper home from work. I am trying to find it online, so I can post here...

Her interview was pretty interesting. It doesn't change my opinion of her. I still think she shouldn't be crucified for doing something so little. The whole hatred for her is, imo, pathetic.

 

[AngraRULES]

I feel like calling her an uneducated tool just a little less today.

Is it worth it, though? I don't think calling her that will make any difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

[nailz]

Is it worth it, though? I don't think calling her that will make any difference in the grand scheme of things.

No, it won't, and it certainly won't change her mind. But still, it's like eating a reece's peanut butter cup. It's oh so delicious until you're on the treadmill for 10 minutes to burn it off.

 

[jaimek]

Kaosaur, I'm not going to debate religion with you, because it will be neverending. With that said, there's no question that the founding fathers' set this country up on institutions based upon the creator, God. Whether you choose to believe that or not is your choice, but my friend, that's fact!

~Brian~

Have you ever heard of primary source documents? I suggest you go read them. Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin in particular have some fascinating things to say that make it pretty clear where they stand on the subject.

Failing that, remember that a good portion of the population at that time immigrated to America to escape state-sponsored religious persecution. They wanted the freedom to believe whatever they wanted, without someone else's viewpoint imposed on them.

 

[edgeofthorns]

Have you ever heard of primary source documents?

I admit, that I have not.

I suggest you go read them.

I just may do that.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin in particular have some fascinating things to say that make it pretty clear where they stand on the subject.

I'm sure they do.

Failing that, remember that a good portion of the population at that time immigrated to America to escape state-sponsored religious persecution.

Totally agree, but God was still a large part of many people's lives.

They wanted the freedom to believe whatever they wanted, without someone else's viewpoint imposed on them.

I agree again, but that still doesn't prove that the founding fathers didn't have a belief in God as well.

~Brian~

 

[nailz]

I agree again, but that still doesn't prove that the founding fathers didn't have a belief in God as well.

~Brian~

Who exactly, do you believe the Founding Fathers to be? As I pointed out, Washington was a Deist (by appearance and perhaps an atheist at heart), Jefferson hated the Clergy, though was perhaps a Deist, and Franklin was a well documented Atheist.

I'm pretty certain these were the 3 most influential "Founding Fathers". Yes, there were some pretty important people who believed in God, like Sam Adams, but he does have a pretty good Beer.

 

[freakchylde]

Who exactly, do you believe the Founding Fathers to be? As I pointed out, Washington was a Deist (by appearance and perhaps an atheist at heart), Jefferson hated the Clergy, though was perhaps a Deist, and Franklin was a well documented Atheist.

I'm pretty certain these were the 3 most influential "Founding Fathers". Yes, there were some pretty important people who believed in God, like Sam Adams, but he does have a pretty good Beer.

semantics....

deist=god/something greater than humans/universe creator

About the only thing that term describes, is that he didn't ascribe to any particular dogma.

 

[nailz]

Again, "a god" does not mean "God." In fact, it's likely that these men believed in "a god" for political purposes. The same way Obama is "against" gay marriage.

 

[Pellaz]

Even Ben Franklin was an Atheist, and you have to know what a roll [sic] he played in creating America.

Please cite your references. I'm almost certain that Franklin was a well-documented Deist.